Hydro or Shuttle for the long haul?

[5030]

I don't notice parasitic power loss or have a way to measure it, esp since I always have the right HST range for each task and maybe enough hp to begin with.

My CUTs only use clutch to start or to engage mechanical PTO. I've had two 50hp Deeres but sold them because my knee, hip, and lower back didn't like me clutching to shift.

If one is used to HST they may find that de-clutching others to prevent stalling requires timing as well as a pedal stomp or lever grab. Digging ruts when cutting a pile got old as my whole leg got tired and my butt got sore. (6' 2", 175 lbs) Don't really miss the Deeres or their hp and HD FELs.

I mentioned the Ck2610 for being a top performer among 'emissions-free' CUTs. Look closely at every detail and see a 30hp 1.6L CUT with the hp 'de-tuned' to avoid emissions stuff. I picked up my 1.5L NH TC33DA when parked next to a Ck2610. You'd have though the hp ratings were the opposite. I was tempted to pay another $6K and get the Kioti instead, but the dealer wasn't MIE and there's that (shudder) color.

IIRC there is one other <25hp tractor that was as all that as the Kioti. Seems it's a Mitsu, and not one re-badged for other brands as some models are. (At least it's red.) btw, IMO blail mower beats BH for WOC/hp.

Anytime you have a fluid coupling between the flywheel and the drive axles and PTO, there will be parasitic loss and why all hydrostats have large oil coolers, to get rid of the heat made from that loss. If I had my druthers today, I'd have a CVT.

 

[the old grind]

An extension cord has parasitic loss. So does a hydraulic line or hose. So does a torque converter. So does a cab, AC, etc or not greasing the tractor often enough. Just because something exists doesn't make it unbearable to all.

Advice to OP, avoid HST or you may have an extra oil cooler to maintain, and you'd need to pay for extra hp so you'll have enough. You're going big hp on this one and farming full time aren't you?

Those lost hp could just wear a guy down in the long haul.

Maybe we HST owners are 'idiots' too for having different needs vs operating at full power more often than not. :laughing:

 

[oosik]

My current tractor - Kubota M6040 - is a geared tractor. Kubota calls it "hydraulic shuttle". It's still a geared tractor. I've never had problems using either the bucket or grapple on the FEL because it's geared.

Likewise - even though my LPGS is dead stupid to learn/use - I've learned to use my rear blade. The LPGS is, basically, one implement, one task. The rear blade is one implement - multiple tasks.

Learn to operate what you have and everything will be fine.

 

[jenkinsph]

Long story short, looking at trading our 1999 New Holland TC29 (which has been an amazing tractor and workhorse) in for a 2020 or 2021 tractor of similar size. I'm actively researching and visiting dealerships of all brands to decide which I feel best about going with. The plan, and who knows what tomorrow brings, but the plan is to keep this new tractor for the rest of my life to use around our property. My son is almost 14 and will likely inherit this tractor when it's old.

I'm likely going to stay in the <26 horsepower range to avoid having a DPF on the engine. Again, I'm thinking long term reliability here.

My next big choice to make is Hydrostatic or Shuttle Shift. It seems that almost all the tractors that I'm looking at (Deere 3025, Mahindra 1625, New Holland Workmaster 25, etc. etc.) are offered with either transmission and they are all within $1,500 bucks of each other in price. My father is a heavy equipment mechanic of 45 years experience and he says that hydrostatic is really nice when it's working, but when it dies it's time to give the tractor away. Big $$$$ to repair. 10-15+ years down the road, would I be better off with a shuttle shift tractor?

I guess I should mention my usage: Mainly carrying brush to the burn pile, carrying logs from fallen trees, grading my gravel driveway (1/2 mile), etc. In the future I might, but not for certain, buy attachments like a backhoe, log splitter, mower, garden tiller, land plane, and grapple. I do not have any plans to use it for heavy agriculture.

Lots of people never spend enough time to demo a tractor prior to purchase. Spend some time at the dealership driving the tractors. Try out the HST and gear models and see what you think. You buy what you like the best. Don't concern yourself with other's opinion as we can only tell you what WE PREFER.

 

[Xfaxman]

Here is what I would prefer for the OP's use: Toolcat Utility Work Machines - Bobcat Company

HST, 4WD, 4Wheel Steer and 2 speeds.

Model 5610 has 3 point and PTO:

Model 5600 dump bed:

And the Toolcat Forum here on TBN: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/toolcat/

 

[Blue Mule]

So yesterday I went to a Deere dealer. "Test drove" the 3025D, 3025E, and 3033R.

The 3025E has the hydro trans and was a breeze to use, but, it didn't have cruise control and I don't want to have to hold pressure on a pedal for steady work. That defeats the purpose of simplicity. And, the gear case is aluminum. So it got crossed off the list.

The 3025D is more of a tank. Heavier, cast iron, more solid built. But the gear shift is a little notchy and difficult at times because it's not a syncronized gearset. It also doesn't have a quick detach loader. And a MMM is not an option for the future.

The 3033R was like a Cadillac. Suspension seat, syncro trans, ready for a 3rd function at the joystick, adjustable 3-point, larger tires, heavier frame, PowrReverser trans, etc. etc. But the dang fuel fill is on the hood. Ugh. And it's $6,300 more bucks.

So I left the dealership more confused than before I got there. Haha.

Going to check with some New Holland dealers today and get quotes. If they are the same money I'll go test a Workmaster 25.

 

[arrow]

Yeah it can get mind boggling.
I've driven a bunch of Mahindras and the one I like best for hydro is their 2530 (if that's what they still number these things) This is a South Korean Tym in reality but it drives real nice, more like you describe with the JD 3033.
The smaller hp hydros seemed wanting to me.
It made me think that I would need a 35-40 hp tractor for hydro to be satisfied with the work I do (plowing snow, brush hogging, skidding tree stems).

A generality for sure as I have not driven "everything", but for 30 hp and below=shuttle in my mind. For ease of use with a more hp tractor, hydro is darn nice.

Fuel cap placement is a non issue as well. Don't think to lift a fuel can up there. Get a 2 gallon container and pour your fuel in that first then bring that to the tractor. I like to put one of those fuel filter funnels in the 2 gallon and then pop the same funnel in the tractor so fuel gets filtered twice.
I'd forget about how anything will hold up long term. That is a luck of the draw and operator prudence. They make bulldozers with hydro and replacing a clutch on a shuttle is something much more likely with the wrong driving technique.

Get what you need now and to h3)) with the rest of the worries.
You can get hit by a bus tomorrow which kind of shortens future variables.

 

[LS Tractor Owner]

I f you do go check the Workmaster 25, look at the ID plate on the frame.... it will show LS MTRON as manufacturer. Here is the SAME LS tractor price for comparison. 2?2? LS MT225E Tractor (12587659) HANEY EQUIPMENT CO. ATHENS Alabama | Fastline

There are at least 3 LS dealers in the central Kentucky area.

The funny thing that I have noticed about the NH vs. LS parts numbers: The NH part numbers begin with "MT" (which is the series designation for LS tractors... MT225, MT240, MT345, etc..)
If you need an LS part number, it is the same number WITHOUT the "MT" prefix.....

 

[the old grind]

Clutching for the long haul ... allows one to operate at max hp and not suffer the power loss of HST. My 35hp NH does similar work as my 26hp Case/IH, neither at WOT.

I wish I could rake up and use the horsepower 'lost' when doing 20hp work with FEL, grading, etc. I have infrared & thermal optics and a UV flashlight & thought I'd search at night for lost hp around the yard. Which should I use to find it most easily? I wonder if it just spills out somewhere on the job.

 

[Blue Mule]

I f you do go check the Workmaster 25, look at the ID plate on the frame.... it will show LS MTRON as manufacturer. Here is the SAME LS tractor price for comparison. 2?2? LS MT225E Tractor (12587659) HANEY EQUIPMENT CO. ATHENS Alabama | Fastline

There are at least 3 LS dealers in the central Kentucky area.

The funny thing that I have noticed about the NH vs. LS parts numbers: The NH part numbers begin with "MT" (which is the series designation for LS tractors... MT225, MT240, MT345, etc..)
If you need an LS part number, it is the same number WITHOUT the "MT" prefix.....

That's very interesting information. I'll check into that. The LS USA website only shows one dealer in KY and it's nearly 50 miles from me.

So today I went and looked at the New Holland Workmaster 25. The price is identical, and the financing is identical, and warranty is identical. But here are the differences I found when comparing to Deere 3025:

NH has cast iron gear case with hydro trans, JD doesn't
NH has better 3-point stabilizers standard
NH has standard set of rear remotes
NH has larger bucket standard with skid steer style quick detach
NH has quick detach loader
NH has 3 ranges instead of 2
NH has Mitsubishi engine vs. Yanmar. I'm more familiar with Yanmar, but...
NH has cruise control on hydro trans (really big deal for me)
NH has standard bucket level rod indicator
NH has 12 gpm of hydraulic flow vs. 9 gpm on the Deere
NH has 43" rear tires vs. 41" on the JD
NH has center PTO standard with hydro trans, opt with gear trans. JD doesn't offer it.
NH has 400ish lbs. more loader lift capacity at full height
NH has 300ish lbs. more lift capacity at the 3-point hitch

JD operator seat feels less crowded with a little more space, and has a nice rubber floor mat
JD has a tighter turning radius

Overall my impressions are that the JD has slightly better appearance, fit, and finish with a nicer design and attention to detail. It makes the NH look like a tractor from a third world country. But the NH offers "more tractor" for the money with standard features for getting work done that cost thousands extra on the JD.

At this point I've pretty much eliminated all of the "grey market" tractors from my search and it's solely down to either the Deere or New Holland because there are dealers within 30 minutes of me and both have extensive parts and service networks.

Sigh.... when I got into this I never imagined that choosing something like a tractor would be so hard!

I'm still struggling over hydro vs. gear. Hydro is MUCH easier to operate especially when doing loader work, but I've seen some videos where guys using hydro tractors to pull hard are nearly stalling out the engine before the tires even break loose. That's awful. But, that could have a lot to do with the 25 horse engine on a large frame compact too I guess. 25 horses seems to be on the edge of underpowered for a 2,500 lb. machine on 40+ inch tires. But gosh I just really don't want a DPF. And I don't really want a used tractor. I have one of those now. Lol. Sigh.....