Hydrogen infrastructure

/ Hydrogen infrastructure
  • Thread Starter
#161  
Anyway. I have completely reversed my thinking, and moved hydrogen from high risk to low risk as a fuel for running vehicles. Certainly has no more risk than running gas or diesel in a vehicle.
I'd say TBN has a (probably much higher than average) good representation of what you just displayed, but I want to say Thanks !

Intellectual curiosity and an open-mind are what topics like this really need....

Fire/explosion...... my favourite is diesel from a risk standpoint, but I might as well just chant the devil's name today......

One gasoline event sticks in my mind.... this happened in Ontario, Canada:


As much as I try to keep Situational Awareness a priority, anticipating a river of fire running down the road I'm on doesn't top my list....

I reference that, not as an anti-carbon fuel zealot (I'm not), but rather in the context of frog in boiling pan of water...... that search I just did on Ytube turned up many gasoline tanker crash - vids. To some extent, it's normalized background today....

Rgds, D.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure
  • Thread Starter
#162  
The X factors that combine to make a Musk a household name, only come along once in a very long time.....

IQ, Engineering talent, and a serious aversion to Sleep are just baseline requirements IMO....

Stick-handling/finessing govt regs alone, derails many other contenders......

Marketing - a huge Make/Break factor.

Consider from 200k ft level.... you are going to disrupt the primary motive technology, that's been used for 100+ years......

What will (actually) Sell ?

The electric-grid. In developed countries, most people just take it for granted, spending no more time paying attention to it than they do to breathing. HUGE normalized reliance/acceptance amongst the intended market (for EVs).

Mention Hydrogen to those same masses, what is the reflex ? People of a certain-age will think Hindenburg (I don't know enough young people to poll for their tribal-knowledge on the name....), other people, nothing at all.....

Elon (despite being an uber techy), is mentally agile enough to pay significant attention to that critical Fork in The Road issue.... OR, he's at least smart enough to listen to the people near to him, who are that Marketing savvy......

As much as I like certain aspects of Hydrogen, I can readily see that it is orders of magnitude easier to Market electric-grid plug-in solutions to a (largely technically illiterate) Mass Market today.....

Rgds, D.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #165  
Iridium spark plugs are precious.

PV electricity to split water into H2 and O2 would drive a battery EV 3x farther than a fuel cell vehicle.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #166  
There is research being done on vehicles that use fuel cells to maintain a battery's charge...basically unlimited range...no external charges needed...!
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #168  
Kind of like the no charge batteries when it's frigid out. I won't be here to worry about it anyway. I'll be up there, watching and chuckling.
Fuel cells don't work cold. Think about making water out of H2 and atmospheric oxygen? Frozen water will not flow. Another consideration is H2 under pressure will drop well below freezing when vented to a pressure that can be used in the fuel cell. LNG vehicles have this same problem, requiring a heater on the expansion valve.

In spite of the hype on the internet lithium batteries do work in the cold, they simply do not release energy as readily. They release well enough to run heaters and therein lies the source of the hyped losses. In use the battery also self-heats as the release of electrical energy is not 100% efficient.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #169  
Fuel cells don't work cold. Think about making water out of H2 and atmospheric oxygen? Frozen water will not flow. Another consideration is H2 under pressure will drop well below freezing when vented to a pressure that can be used in the fuel cell. LNG vehicles have this same problem, requiring a heater on the expansion valve.

In spite of the hype on the internet lithium batteries do work in the cold, they simply do not release energy as readily. They release well enough to run heaters and therein lies the source of the hyped losses. In use the battery also self-heats as the release of electrical energy is not 100% efficient.
FWIW...
flowing water prevents freezing...
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #170  
Fuel cells don't work cold. Think about making water out of H2 and atmospheric oxygen? Frozen water will not flow. Another consideration is H2 under pressure will drop well below freezing when vented to a pressure that can be used in the fuel cell. LNG vehicles have this same problem, requiring a heater on the expansion valve.

In spite of the hype on the internet lithium batteries do work in the cold, they simply do not release energy as readily. They release well enough to run heaters and therein lies the source of the hyped losses. In use the battery also self-heats as the release of electrical energy is not 100% efficient.
Or think about listening to the people who know rather than a random naysayer on the internet.

 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #171  
Or think about listening to the people who know rather than a random naysayer on the internet.

Interesting site. Have you read any of the other articles? What do you think about them?
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #172  
I just choke on the amount of infrastructure required to move an element that diffuses through pretty much anything, burns practically invisibly, and takes enormous amounts of energy to densify. Fuel cells not withstanding, there really aren't great, practical ways to transport sufficient energy to move vehicles typical distances. I have seen hydrogen powered cars and buses, and while water vapor exhaust is different, at the end of the day, it is about enabling transport from A to B, and hydrogen just falls short in so many dimensions. But don't take my word for it.

Hydrogen for industrial uses, sure. Direct reduction of ores to elements, e.g. iron ore to steel, is likely to be a great use. It is however a very challenging chemical to work with, at least in my experience.

All the best,

Peter
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #173  
I didn't read this entire thread so I don't know if this has been brought up but power plants have been using compressed hydrogen for years as a cooling gas for the generators. Obviously much less is used in this application than if it were being used for fuel but still we know how to handle and store it safely.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure
  • Thread Starter
#174  
Not following this thread but here is why Hydrogen is a pipe dream.

No step-change in tech is w/o engineering challenges. What is expensive in one era can become common not that much later in time.....living more than 2 decades, most people have experienced that process.

Many arguments (both sides, any issue) often exhibit Confirmation Bias........ but I'd put today's Net Zero debates towards the pinnacle of that list. Watched another vid recently, arguing for cramming more people in to cities, and expanding them...... conveniently ignores the Net Zero calculations involved with paving over adjacent farmland, and transporting more Ag products even further, to fuel these super-cities......

implementation/infrastructure challenges....... here or elsewhere, somebody cited a hydrogen filling station shut down because of problems/costs....... chuckling when I read that. Anybody who has worked with traditional infrastructure (ie. tech that is supposedly well understood) knows how typically under-funded maintenance is..... the people deciding budgets are typically bureaucrats and bean-counters, so it's no wonder a novel technology is exceeding "budgets".

I know of a Canadian city where the orders for EV buses have been halted. Not just due to issues with the buses, but it became inconveniently obvious that the way they were having to charge the existing buses was to have multiple very large (older emissions than existing diesel buses) diesel generators onsite, screaming away to rapidly charge the trial-fleet.

Major upgrades to the grid are $$$$$.....Who Knew ? :cool: Most jurisdictions are way past the "Build It, We've got an Economy to Support" mentality of my childhood. So, in a lot of cases, all levels are waiting around to get somebody else to pay for grid upgrades......

Just a few examples....... turns out, if you actually still want to get Things Done (ie. Work), then hydrocarbons are not easily, and definitely not cheaply, replaced. I'm part way through it, if you can, get a hold of Fossil Future that came out this year, by Alex Epstein, I can recommend it.

While fuel-cells get attention, what is less discussed is burning Hydrogen directly. Burn it with air, and pretty much all you have to mitigate is NOx, which has been well understood for most of my life. Burn it with pure oxygen, and all you get is H20 out....... that I'd like to see in a water cracking pilot, fixed industrial use. Cake, Eat it, Get more Cake......

Hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle - Wikipedia

I came across a great line from Peter Thiel....... paraphrasing slightly "Being extremely optimistic or extremely pessimistic (Things Will Always/Never Work Out) amounts to the Same Thing...... an Excuse to Do Nothing".

There won't be any one totally perfect replacement for hydrocarbons..... we just need to get on with implementing some improved alternatives, that suit their intended applications......

Rgds, D.
 
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/ Hydrogen infrastructure
  • Thread Starter
#175  
I won't post it directly, but some macro thoughts from Thiel can be found if you search youtube for the recent interview :

Peter Thiel, Leader of the Rebel Alliance​


When someone who is perceived as (and is) very successful is not afraid to publicly say "I don't know", < that gets my attention.

Rgds, D.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #176  
Interesting site. Have you read any of the other articles? What do you think about them?
Read the author's biography. He is a professional writer. No technical training. Doesn't provide any specifics only generally claims batteries do poorly in cold and "You won’t have to spend extra money or effort to operate a hydrogen fuel cells." This is just another example of the poor state of modern journalism, "copy/paste things together than seem to support your desired statement."

Says hydrogen fuel cells make heat. Doesn't seem to think lithium cells get warm in use. Just how difficult is an electric resistance heater?

Completely ignores how compressed gas gets very cold in an expansion valve. How this is the fundamental basis of a modern heat pump air conditioner which operates on much lower pressures than hydrogen is stored. Hydrogen systems require heaters just like battery systems. But where are you going to get the heat without gasoline, diesel, or a large battery?

CNG and propane systems also require heaters on the expansion valve but most of those are dual fuel and can bring the ICE up to temperature before changeover, then use the ICE cooling system to heat the expansion valve.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #178  
Read the author's biography. He is a professional writer. No technical training. Doesn't provide any specifics only generally claims batteries do poorly in cold and "You won’t have to spend extra money or effort to operate a hydrogen fuel cells." This is just another example of the poor state of modern journalism, "copy/paste things together than seem to support your desired statement."

Says hydrogen fuel cells make heat. Doesn't seem to think lithium cells get warm in use. Just how difficult is an electric resistance heater?

Completely ignores how compressed gas gets very cold in an expansion valve. How this is the fundamental basis of a modern heat pump air conditioner which operates on much lower pressures than hydrogen is stored. Hydrogen systems require heaters just like battery systems. But where are you going to get the heat without gasoline, diesel, or a large battery?

CNG and propane systems also require heaters on the expansion valve but most of those are dual fuel and can bring the ICE up to temperature before changeover, then use the ICE cooling system to heat the expansion valve.
That's pretty much what i got out of the site too. It seemed a poorer attempt at cashing in on "alternative" energy then most sites.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #179  
I see Musk has supposedly developed a battery that uses NO Lithium. That is interesting.
Those sneaky Capitalists will try anything!

Have you forgotten NiCAD and NiMH already? Oh and lead-acid?
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #180  
I see Musk has supposedly developed a battery that uses NO Lithium. That is interesting.
I've read a few things about a Vanadium Redox battery. I'm not sure if that's what Elon has been funding/supporting. Supposedly it might be the ticket for large, stored energy facilities to compliment solar/wind.
 

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