I Beam help needed

   / I Beam help needed #41  
CurlyDave


Also he could 'double up' the 2 x 12" making 4 x 12" and still be way ahead of steel pricing.

If doubling up, I's suggest using spacer blocks so that the 2x12" don't make contact with each other to keep em dry.
Also a trick I use with decks is to lay strips off roof membrane or HD black poly between the joists and the decking. This way water can't get at the beams to soak in.

Have made 22" people bridges w/o center supports this way using 2x10's and PT 1 1/4x6 planking.
Because I made them 5' wide I added a single 22' in the center to keep the spring out.

That was 15yrs back and they are as good today as back then.

Hey, I'd drive my 3/4 ton PU across a 10' span that had doubled 2 x 12's and 2 x 10 or 2 x 12 decking! (with a center 2x12)
 
   / I Beam help needed
  • Thread Starter
#42  
Dave,

Thank you for taking the time to write down all that information!!!

My original plan was to use 2x12's with 2x6 decking, but thought steel I-Beams would last longer and be stronger. Using 2x12 for the decking is something new that I'd never considered or seen.

How does the larger wood work for warping and cuping? Will it hold surface water after a rain? If so, would it be slipery??

I'll have to get the price for the I-beams before I decide one way or another, but wouldn't I-Beams be more permanent and last longer? I've seen I-Beams that are over a hundred years old, but I have no idea how long the Preasure Treated wood will last as a bridge.

Thanks again,
Eddie
 
   / I Beam help needed
  • Thread Starter
#43  
Pilon,

You and Dave have me quesioning steel. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

How much is a W8X24 I-Beam???

I'm not familiar with puting roof membrane on my joists when building a deck. What is roof membrane?

Is it like tar flashing, or felt????

Do you just staple it on, then attach the decking?

I am allot more comfortable working with wood, but keep coming back to which will last longer and what the price difference will be.

Three 20 foot I-Beams with 2x6's, or fourteen PT 2x12's??????

Thanks,
Eddie
 
   / I Beam help needed #44  
Eddie

If you keep the 2x12's away from moisture, ie sit them on concrete or metal pads, well away from earth or other compostable stuff they will go forever.
Being a bridge ther will always be air circulating hence they will dry fast from rain.
Aslo using a garden sprayer you can re treat them from time to time to prolong the life.
Be sure to end treat (soak) any cuts.

I got my idea of the 'membrane' technique from a deck that I repaired for a neighbor whereby the carpenter (50 yrs ago) had placed 3" strips of galvanized tin over each beam prior to decking a dock.
Th beams (untreated) were just as sound as when installed 50 yrs ago because water could not get under the tin strips.
Was like 'little roofs' on the beams.
Sure the decking gave out, but ALL the structure was sound!
 
   / I Beam help needed #45  
How does the larger wood work for warping and cuping? Will it hold surface water after a rain? If so, would it be slipery??

I have a 2' wide "walkway" (actually scaffolding I have had up for 15 years in front of my house--they why of this has a lot to do with building permits and an obnoxious neighbor), with PT 2x12 as a deck. It is screwed down with deck screws 3 places at each end. It is exposed to the rain. No warping or cupping in 15 years. I don't remember, but I think I drilled holes for the deck screws so the ones at the edges of the 2x12's wouldn't split the wood. You would only need to do this on the ends whatever you use for your deck.

I think if you screw it down to each beam you will prevent warping & cupping. My neighbor (not the obnoxious one) has a 30' bridge with 2x12 decking and it is still perfect after ~18 years.

If you have the beams on 12" centers, I doubt it will warp, since I have examples with wider beam spacing which are still OK.

I have a foot bridge with 2x6 redwood (non-PT) decking leading from my driveway to front door which is very slippery after a rain. The PT wood is "stabbed" every couple of square inches to promote penetration of the PT solution. This gives a rougher surface which is significantly less slippery than smooth wood.

...wouldn't I-Beams be more permanent and last longer? I've seen I-Beams that are over a hundred years old, but I have no idea how long the Preasure Treated wood will last as a bridge.

There are non-PT wooden bridges well over 100 years old in the northeast, as well as wooden buildings. I think most of them are reaching end-of-life. As far as I know, PT increases life so who knows how long that would last?

About 20 years ago I worked with a guy who lived in England. He had family money and used to brag that there was a beam in his house with the construction date -- 1620 -- carved into it. One day we got fed up with his bragging and asked him if there was some reason why he couldn't afford a new house. This torqued him off more than I thought it would, but demonstrated that wood will last several centuries in a protected environment.

I agree that I-beams would last longer than PT wood, but I suspect the wood is going to outlast either one of us. Does it really matter? If the deck is PT wood, this will be the first thing to wear out, although the stringers (ledger boards?) you are talking about putting on top of the I-beams will trap water between themselves and the I-beams. If I used that design, I would think about marine grade PT for those...

As a practical matter, you only need the bridge to last longer than the rest of your RV park. When your park is successful, you can replace the wood with platinum-plated titanium in 50 years. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You seem to be self-financing a grass-roots startup. I have had a few small businesses over the years. The most important objective is to get the business open before you run out of money. "Better" is the enemy of "good enough".

Thank you for taking the time to write down all that information!!!

You flatter me. I am an engineer -- I like thinking about this kind of stuff. Your project is fascinating, your posts are good, and you have a wealth of practical experience.

Keep up the posts!
 
   / I Beam help needed #46  
Here's what you need Eddie. Con/Span Bridge Using the DYOB (Design Your Own Bridge), you can put in your needs and have a bridge customized for you. Unfortunately, I would think it's probably quite pricey. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
   / I Beam help needed #47  
Dave,

I'm at work so this is fairly brief. Using your theory, 2 x 12's at 12" on center over 12' span hold up my pontiac with two more pontiacs stacked on top. I don't think I'd want to try that. Point loading requires different calculations than uniform load distribution. Lay a 2 x 4 down flat spanning say 8' and walk one foot in from the end. Stays in one piece as it might if you placed 25 lbs equally every foot. Now just you walk to the center. SNAP /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif However, I do think (2) PT yellow pine 2 x 12's well joined at 12" centers would probably be close on making the point load calcs. Maybe one of the engineers will chime in on that?
 
   / I Beam help needed #48  
Using your theory, 2 x 12's at 12" on center over 12' span hold up my pontiac with two more pontiacs stacked on top.

Well, it is not a theory, it is engineering calculations, based on actual experiments. And the answer is yes, it would hold your 3 Pontiacs and quite well...

I have to go to work also, but if there is still debate tonight, I will show you how there is actually a huge safety magin in using the span tables.

The span tables are based on actual experiments done by real engineers. It is just not reasonable to make up a hypothetical example, think you know the outcome without doing any experiments, and expect us to give that equal credibility?

Another safety magin, which has not yet been considered, is that the span tables do not represent ultimate strength or anything close to it. They represent designing for a deflection of 1/360 of the span at the center.

BTW, the tractor does not represent anything like a single point load -- the closest you can come is that it might represent four point loads separated by the wheelbase distance and wheel spacing. Think about this for a minute. If you put the rear wheels at the center of the span, the front wheels are off the end of the span so you have approximately half the weight at the center, depending on weight distribution. The rest of the weight is not even on the span. If you position the tractor in the center of the span, the point loads might be 1' to 2" (10 foot span) from the ends.
 
   / I Beam help needed #49  
Gentlemen,

I have been following this thread for some time and feel that I need to but in here now. IMHO the wood beams MAY work but need to be engineered for the applied loads of the tractor and live loads of the pedestrians.

An influence line analysis is what is needed to determine the location of the tractor that will create the maximum stresses on the beam members no matter what material is used. For wood I would believe that shear loading at the end of the spans would control the design. For steel bending would control. For any case AASHTO loadings will be the correct loadings to use. Amplification factors need to be used to account for impact type loadings from the moving loads. Distribution of the load is also covered in the AASHTO loadings.

It has been a while since I have designed a light vehicle bridge (used to due a lot) like this but for wood I would only use the beams directly under the load to calculate stresses. Contact patch of the tire is relatively short length wise so the individual tire loads can be assumed to be point loads. If the rear tire width is 15” or more wide you could use two beams spaced at 12” to support the design loading; otherwise only one! Using a thicker decking would allow for some lateral distribution of loads. Live load on the bridge for foot traffic can be assumed at 100 psf with AISC/ACI/NDS load factors and design or 85 psf (I think, can’t remember) with the AASHTO factors (which are higher).

Design of the beams no matter whether steel or wood is straight forward. The detailing is the tricky part. I am a Structural Engineer and specialize in Failures! The details and controlling Minimum Design Criteria are often overlooked in favor of a general design.

Eddie,

You seem to have a lot of experience and common sense about your projects but I would highly recommend using a small Structural Engineering firm (or experienced independent) to design the beams and connection details. The support buttresses and foundations are the most critical elements for the beams. The handrails and supports for the bridge for pedestrians (min design load is 50 plf in any direction or 200 lb point load). You have a huge liability with this being an RV park with “the public” using it. I could design and detail this in a few hours but due to the liability I can not. Sorry.

…Derek
 
   / I Beam help needed #50  
"Edited for spelling.. Derick /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif"

Derek,

Yes. It's the "failure" label that puts you in a different league. Can you spell "Expert witness" /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif You can see it and feel it beyond calculation, which most young, arrogant Carpenters and Base Building Superintendents, like I once was, think is our pervue only. Hats off, not because Dave was mistaken, he just had the science tweaked a wee bit more than I did. Both of us were NO real science on this one. If it makes Dave feel any better, I planted that post years before he ever got his hands on it. It's what we learn that counts though. And he's a good and smart guy and one good contributor here. Way better than I. Thanks to him too,.... always.

Great description Derek. "I think".... you sure do /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.
 

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