I have a crazy idea to pump water

[EddieWalker]

There are several ways to get through the rock in a horizontal bore. The best and most expensive would be to hire it out to a guy with a bore machine that does line bores. I doubt you could rent such a machine. I had a hundred foot bore done under the highway in front of my place. It was 8 inches wide and cost me $3,000. They also sleeved it with an 8 inch metal pipe that I provided for that price. This was through clay and not rock, so the price is probably meaningless. You also don't need anything more than an inch in diamater anyway.

My next thought is to how do the miners, especially hundreds of years ago, drill holes into rock. Hitting a rod with a hammer over and over again doesn't sound practical, but I wonder if you could drill it with a masonary bit? Get a one ince bit and find a way to attach lengths of rods to it as you get further and further in. Getting the debri out of the hole will be a challange and would require pulling the bit out all the time, but I don't see why it wouldn't work with enough time. Keeping it straight would be the real trick.

If the drill wasn't strong enough, especially with ten or twenty feet of rod or pipe attached to it, maybe using an impact wrench to turn it would work.

I'm just guesing here and throwing out ideas. If it was me, I like the idea of trenching down ten feet and using the siphon as low as possible. I just wonder how you keep from filling in the well hole as you dig around it. Do you put a sleeve in there first? Then dig to the sleeve?

This is turing into one of those very interesting threads that I love so much about this site.

Eddie

 

[Phils]

A couple of posts mention "draining the aquafier"....

These mountain wells don't tap into an aquafier. Instead they tap into underground rivers or streams or (in my case) trickles. Hit one, you've got water. Miss it and you don't. The flow can change but not due to pumping out water.

I mentioned my piddly well earlier. I was ignorant of the complete process of "witching". We had our land witched and after watching him trace an underground stream, accepted his suggestion on where to put the well. I made mental notes using nearby trees on where he said to drill.

Five years later, after clearing MUCH brush and forest, the well rig was on site and I was asked "where?". I took that 5 year old memory, looked at the nearby trees, and said "here". For all practical purposes it was a dry well and the driller (who doesn't believe in witching) chose some other spots that he was sure would produce. His holes produced absolutely nothing but powder. The first one filled to within 100' of the top (it was 360' deep) in two days.

We brought in another witch. He traced the same underground streams as the first witch, and he passed right close to where we had punched the well. He explained that we had just missed the stream but were so close that we were getting our limited flow from it. Had we hit it, he said, his witching stick would've stopped cold at our well. He suggested that we dynamite and told us the depth to place the charges.

What I NOW know is that if the witch says "here" he doesn't mean "within 5 ft of here" but "exactly here".

That is what gave us our present 3GPH. If I had lotsa money, I could punch another well into that stream WHICH I HAVE CAREFULLY MARKED. Maybe someday.

Phil

 

[stumpfield]

I mentioned my piddly well earlier. I was ignorant of the complete process of "witching". We had our land witched and after watching him trace an underground stream, accepted his suggestion on where to put the well. I made mental notes using nearby trees on where he said to drill.
Phil

My well driller did the witching. He's an old timer and a true believer in water witching. I leave it completely up to him on where to drill. He picked the location before I did the road and all the grading works. I carefully note the exact location by measuring distances from several trees. I call him back 6 month later and the place don't even look the same anymore. He was on the spot within inches.
In my case, when I learned the well only produce 2gpm, I wanted to drill deeper and drill another hole. I don't really care about the cost. Interesting enough, my well driller refuse to do it. He said he found and hit that underground river. 2gpm is all I would get even if I drill another hole. He didn't want to drill any deeper because he thought there is a dry fracture underneath and could risk losing the 2gpm or lower water level in the well. Since I told him to drill like he would drill his own well, I didn't argue with him or try anything different. I just want to get the most out of that 2gpm.

 

[RonMar]

Would it be easier/harder to use 1/4" line vs. 1/2" line? or it doesn't matter? I'm thinking the smaller 1/4" line would be easier to start the siphon with a vacuum because of less volume and control the flow to a minimum.

I am assuming that when you say 120V vacume you are refering to a vacume cleaner. You are not going to be able to pull enough vacume with a vacume cleaner to start a 20' siphon like this. Vacumes suck because they are moveing air thru their impeller. Stop the airflow and you loose the suction(compressor stall). Same thing happens with a leaf blower when you block the outlet.

I think you are going to have trouble making it work with 1/4" drip tube. My pipe friction tables only go down to 1/2" but at 1/2", 100' of pipe at a 2GPM flow will have the equivelent friction of removeing another 13.7' from your head level(same as lowering the water level in your well 13.7 feet!) 1/4" I am guessing would be well over 20 feet of head loss. These figures are for PVC and are calculated using the Hazen-Williams equation for flow in pipes. 1/2" Poly tube(such as is used for most drip tubes) is slightly worse at 13.9 feet of head loss per 100' of pipe at 2 GPM flow rate.

I would reccomend 1" at a MINIMUM, even for a test(only half of a foot of head loss per 100' at 2GPM).

 

[CurlyDave]

I plan to use a 120v vacuum to suck from the end of the line to see if I can start the siphon process. If I can start the siphon this way, I'll let it run and come back in a month to see what happen.

I hope you do not mean a 120 volt vacuum cleaner -- these only produce a few inches of water vacuum.

I think it is possible to buy 100' of garden hose for $20-25, if you just need something for a trial.

This item looks like it would work for a trial. Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

 

[MossRoad]

Man, you guys are getting complicated with shop vacs and stuff...

As someone else already stated, just use one 150' garden hose and one ball valve at the downhill end. Close the ball valve, fill the garden hose with water, throw the short end down the well, walk down the hill and open the ball valve. As long as the lift in the well is less than 30 feet minus the variation for altitude, water will flow. It is just that simple.

 

[stumpfield]

Ok. The garden hose seem to be the easiest way to find out if this will work. I bought 120' 5/8" garden hose and this pump from HF.

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

This pump can do 26.2ft suction lift. I assume the spec is at sea level. With the altitude adjustment, I'm still within spec. Either way, I will get water out of that well.
I have zero experience with pumps. If I run the pump to suck water out of the well and fill the garden hose to start the siphon process then shutdown the engine, will it continue to flow through the pump? or do I need to disconnect quickly to by pass the pump? I can't run the pump too long....

 

[MikeD74T]

Ok. The garden hose seem to be the easiest way to find out if this will work. I bought 120' 5/8" garden hose and this pump from HF.

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

This pump can do 26.2ft suction lift. I assume the spec is at sea level. With the altitude adjustment, I'm still within spec. Either way, I will get water out of that well.
I have zero experience with pumps. If I run the pump to suck water out of the well and fill the garden hose to start the siphon process then shutdown the engine, will it continue to flow through the pump? or do I need to disconnect quickly to by pass the pump? I can't run the pump too long....

I don't understand why you bought the pump, but it's none of my business anyway. Having a pump that can pump your well dry in 15 seconds seems pointless.Three people have told you that the hose & gravity alone will do the job, why don't you believe that long enough to try it? As for suction rating, gravity will lift 33 ft of water at sea level. Yes water will continue to flow thru a centrifugal pump by siphon provided it's properly placed. Unless you have another use for the pump try the hose alone first. Just bring the hose & 1 gallon of water. You can use your thumb for the valve if you're agile enough. Or use this valve. Harbor Freight Tools
Please don't think I'm being mean spirited, this is far simpler than you're allowing it to be. MikeD74t
P.S. I can think of dozens of uses for that pump, this just isn't any of them.

 

[stumpfield]

I don't understand why you bought the pump, but it's none of my business anyway. Having a pump that can pump your well dry in 15 seconds seems pointless.Three people have told you that the hose & gravity alone will do the job, why don't you believe that long enough to try it? As for suction rating, gravity will lift 33 ft of water at sea level. Yes water will continue to flow thru a centrifugal pump by siphon provided it's properly placed. Unless you have another use for the pump try the hose alone first. Just bring the hose & 1 gallon of water. You can use your thumb for the valve if you're agile enough. Or use this valve. Harbor Freight Tools
Please don't think I'm being mean spirited, this is far simpler than you're allowing it to be. MikeD74t
P.S. I can think of dozens of uses for that pump, this just isn't any of them.

MikeD74T:
You are absolutely right. I didn't buy the pump just for this experiment. I have another use for the pump. It will be a free pump and some change when I'm done with it. Like you said, there are dozen of uses for that pump and it's nice to have around.
I wanted to start the concrete work for my foundation during the next trip there. My contractor wanted an extra $500 if he has to hire a water truck for the concrete work and to clean his tools. Just in case this siphon idea doesn't work, I'll be using it to pump non-potable water from the spring/creek about 30' below the homesite. One way or another, I must provide water to avoid the $500 extra charge. I have a lot of confident in the siphon idea and many of you help reinforce that. I wish I can try it right now.... I bought not 1 but 10 rolls of 120' 5/8" garden hose from sam's club. It will be my temporary water line from the storage tank to the homesite. I'll let you know the result soon....

 

[reb]

Interesting thread. I would suggest that merely pouring water from a jug into the hose will not remove all the air. I tried that a few years ago, using a garden hose with clear plastic tubes on the ends as a level to estimate the slope of my property. It took a lot of shaking and a few four letter words to get all the bubbles out. Filling the hose under pressure, plugging it after all the air is expelled is the best way.