I might need to sell my 7710-II

[tinkertoys]

Any time you have loose metal (rod bearing parts) in the crankcase, you should replace the oil pump and the turbo. Metal particles score the oil pump therefore it doesn't produce proper oil pressure. Engine oil cools and lubs the turbo. Now fight them tooth and nail for not getting your permission. Its going to be hard to prove but don't give up. they will slipup or get tired afterwhile GOOD LUCK.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Robert,

So the actual problem was a "thrown crankshaft bearing" , not a throwout bearing
I think i fully understand it now.


If it was MY tractor and i was going to do the repair, i would have taken this route:

-dismantle the crankshaft and have it reground on the particular crank where the damaged crankshaft bearing was
- replace all the other crankshaft bearings as well, as a prevention because the tractor ran without oil pressure, and i could probably buy the set of bearings for less than $200, and for regrinding the crank, you need to take them all out anyways.
-test the tractor on the dyno to see if the turbo hasnt been damaged.
The turbo is very sensitive for low oil pressure because of the high speed of the turbine, between 15.000 and 25.000 rpm usually. However a turbo bearing failure usually doesnt cause collateral damage to the tractor, so leaving it to see what it does, would be safe.

FYI, a "short"block, is the lower part of an engine block, without heads (and manifolds, turbo etcetera.)

Why did they tell you that you needed a new engine BLOCK if you just spun a crankshaft bearing ? did you misunderstand that part, or did the connecting rod also come loose and was smashed through the block wall by the crankshaft ?

Was the crankshaft bearing, the cause of the loss of oil pressure, or did the oil pump fail, dropping the oil pressure to zero and starving the entire crankshaft of oil, which resulted in bearing failures ?

If there was no collateral damage to the BLOCK itself, there was no reason to replace the entire block, and a crankshaft regrind would suffice. All parts it would need then, was some new crankshaft bearings, and it could definately be repaired for the $900 you were quoted.

I think it was the oil sending unit or something on the left side of the motor that had the oil blow out of it which caused the low pressure. I really don't know motors well enough to explain it and may be saying the wrong parts as I learn parts when I have to work on them and so far I have never had to work on this part.

I was told there was damage to the block somewhere but nothing went thru the outside of the block. I don't know if it was gouging, excessive wear or what happened in there.

I had a picture of what the short block was but my lack of knowledge on the subject makes explaining things a little hard so thanks.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Any time you have loose metal (rod bearing parts) in the crankcase, you should replace the oil pump and the turbo. Metal particles score the oil pump therefore it doesn't produce proper oil pressure. Engine oil cools and lubs the turbo. Now fight them tooth and nail for not getting your permission. Its going to be hard to prove but don't give up. they will slipup or get tired afterwhile GOOD LUCK.

That may be the case. However, I was disappointed in not being told ahead of time when they diagnosed the problem. If this was something that was going to be included in the price it should have been included in the price I was originally told, not just on the bill

 

[tinkertoys]

One more thing you should of been offered all of the old parts, or at least be shown them.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

One more thing you should of been offered all of the old parts, or at least be shown them.

I am not sure if they had them still when I was there the last time but I didn't even think to ask at the time (this was pre-billing). I was in the hospital before I received the bill and it was a couple months after until I was able to actually go to the dealership so I would think if there was a core on any of these things by now they would be gone

 

[Renze]

I think the dealer quoted you $900 to replace crankshaft bearings and have 1 tappet reground, because they assumed the broken bearing was the CAUSE of the oil pressure drop, instead of a RESULT.

When they found that the broken bearing was the RESULT of the broken bearing, and not the CAUSE, (because the engine pumped all oil out as stated in the bill, "tractor came in with no oil in it") they probably found that your engine was a total write off because all other moving parts (camshaft, cylinder walls) have ran dry as well.

Because these Ford engines are so called "parent bore", which means that the cylinder liners cannot be replaced, it is usual that the engine is thrown away and a new engine, or shortblock, is installed..

I think the oil pump was replaced because it failed, this causing the oil pressure drop ?


I disagree about it being necessary to replace the turbo when bearing shrapnel has been in the oil: engine lubrication oil pumps normally always have a suction filter to prevent that it goes into the lubrication system.

However, because your engine starved of oil (dealer found NO oil in the engine when it came in) i'm pretty sure the turbo was dead too...



To sum this up shortly, i think the dealer assumed that 1 crank bearing broke, causing the oil pressure drop.
When they opened her up, they found that the bearing was a RESULT of the oil pressure drop, not the CAUSE. That means that there was a high chance that all other bearings were damaged too, as well as the camshaft bearings and the cylinder liners. In that case agree with their decision to not put any money in the toasted engine.

However, as you say, afterwards it would be cheaper to get a complete new engine, because of the workshop labor hours savings.

I dont think they replaced more than they needed to, because they even went with the shortblock instead of a complete engine, but they lacked in informing you that the problem was far worse than they expected and that the engine was a total write off....


I agree that they should be able to show you the old parts: I once had a transmission of my car rebuilt at a tranny specialist: They sent me all bearings they had taken out, with it in the box, as proof that they didnt just charge me 913 Euro for pressure washing and painting her up nicely.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I think the dealer quoted you $900 to replace crankshaft bearings and have 1 tappet reground, because they assumed the broken bearing was the CAUSE of the oil pressure drop, instead of a RESULT.

When they found that the broken bearing was the RESULT of the broken bearing, and not the CAUSE, (because the engine pumped all oil out as stated in the bill, "tractor came in with no oil in it") they probably found that your engine was a total write off because all other moving parts (camshaft, cylinder walls) have ran dry as well.

Because these Ford engines are so called "parent bore", which means that the cylinder liners cannot be replaced, it is usual that the engine is thrown away and a new engine, or shortblock, is installed..

I think the oil pump was replaced because it failed, this causing the oil pressure drop ?


I disagree about it being necessary to replace the turbo when bearing shrapnel has been in the oil: engine lubrication oil pumps normally always have a suction filter to prevent that it goes into the lubrication system.

However, because your engine starved of oil (dealer found NO oil in the engine when it came in) i'm pretty sure the turbo was dead too...



To sum this up shortly, i think the dealer assumed that 1 crank bearing broke, causing the oil pressure drop.
When they opened her up, they found that the bearing was a RESULT of the oil pressure drop, not the CAUSE. That means that there was a high chance that all other bearings were damaged too, as well as the camshaft bearings and the cylinder liners. In that case agree with their decision to not put any money in the toasted engine.

However, as you say, afterwards it would be cheaper to get a complete new engine, because of the workshop labor hours savings.

I dont think they replaced more than they needed to, because they even went with the shortblock instead of a complete engine, but they lacked in informing you that the problem was far worse than they expected and that the engine was a total write off....


I agree that they should be able to show you the old parts: I once had a transmission of my car rebuilt at a tranny specialist: They sent me all bearings they had taken out, with it in the box, as proof that they didnt just charge me 913 Euro for pressure washing and painting her up nicely.

This is the problem, if this is the case then I would have accepted it and decided what to do according to what I could afford. I really do not know where things went wrong as I tried my best to explain my situation and what I expected out of them just so I would avoid this problem. If they would have told me it was going to cost over $10k for this repair I would have pulled the tractor back home and repaired it myself (with my family's help since they know what they are doing). I know I could do this repair for half the cost they charged by using other sources for parts. Heck, with the savings I could have put a nice concrete floor in the barn first and still had money left over

You live and learn and before everything is said and done I will learn quite a bit as a result of this experience.

 

[EddieWalker]

The Turbo was another $1100.

I have no idea of what turbo you have or how rare it is, but on my 1988 Case Dozer with the 8.3 Cummins engine, the turbo cost just over $500 from the dealer.

When I was pricing turbos to see what would be the cheapest route, I found all sorts of them in this price range. I'd check around to see if they are gouging you. If so, that might be usefull. If you find that the price was what you can get it for someplace else, then maybe their numbers are reasonable and it goes back to them doing work that wasn't authorized.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I have no idea of what turbo you have or how rare it is, but on my 1988 Case Dozer with the 8.3 Cummins engine, the turbo cost just over $500 from the dealer.

When I was pricing turbos to see what would be the cheapest route, I found all sorts of them in this price range. I'd check around to see if they are gouging you. If so, that might be usefull. If you find that the price was what you can get it for someplace else, then maybe their numbers are reasonable and it goes back to them doing work that wasn't authorized.

Good luck,
Eddie

I checked the prices against Messicks prices and they are mostly in line. The Turbo was a little over $100 cheaper from Messicks.

There is plenty of room to work if the dealer is willing to admit some fault in all of this and suck it up and eat some or all of their profit on this. I am already going to have to pay more then I originally planned on and have accepted this. But I need to get the dealer to negotiate and right now he is playing from a position of power.

 

[chh]

Robert glad to see that you are able to be so patient with this. I'd be going nuts till it was resolved. It is really frustrating to negotiate with someone who thinks he is holding all the good cards. I'm not much on sueing or going to court, I had plenty of that in a divorce and custody battle.(I ended up with all 3 kids) and dealing with my parents illnesses, care and estate. But speaking from the experience of that and dealing with oil and gas companies you really should speak to an attorney to find out what your legal rights are. Around here the gas exploration and leasing companies will run all over you if you don't know your rights as a landowner. Much the same may be going on with you simply because you aren't aware of your rights. New Yorks' Attorney Generals office may have a dept of consumer affairs that may be able to provide some insight also.
The refusal to negotiate a price until you can pay in full and still charge you interest sounds odd to me. After all your ability to pay should not affect the price, if you were going to borrow the money to pay for it how much would you need to borrow if you didn't know the amount? The very fact that they are indicating a willingness to negotiate a price seems to me to be an admission that they know they did something wrong. After all if you knew you 100% in the right would you lower price?
Just some thoughts I've picked up from reading this thread since it started and wishing you the best of luck on the deal. Keep us posted on the outcome.

BTW: How's the back coming along?