I need some help from a plumber

[Freds]

I need some ideas on how much I want to invest to fix a problem.

My house is on a septic system and so is my business, which is on the same property but has its own septic.
The township has said we would be getting sewer down the road, but they have no idea when.
My house's leach field (assuming it has one) has stopped working and now the septic tank simply fills up and overflows out the cover.
What I'd like to do is have a temporary fix and this is my idea: I could lower a submersible pump into my house's septic tank and pump it into the cleanout on my other septic system. It would be nice to leave the pump in the tank and have it work automatically, but I cannot have the 140 ft of hose I will need laying across my driveway and parking area. And I don't want to bury it deep enough to prevent freezing because that would be pretty intrusive on my property for something that will only be used temporarily. Although I know that will save me the grief of having to drag everything out to pump it down every few weeks... I'm assuming sewage freezes...

Yesterday I was looking at pumps at the local hardware store. I don't know if I could get by with a utility pump, inline pump, or if I need a full blown sewage pump. It would be nice just to crack open the lid and drop a hose into the tank, but it might clog up, too. Maybe nothing a shake won't clear... The thing about the sewage pump is it requires a 2" hose... I'd like to get by with a garden hose due to the distance, but don't know if I can reduce the 2" to 3/4" without developing too much head pressure or whatever it's called. I'm looking for something to get by until who knows when, maybe next year maybe 3 years from now.

That's the gist of it. Does anyone have any input here? I'd appreciate other opinions as to what my best option would be.

Thanks

 

[cowboy357]

Hi Freds , I had the same Problem before finally Replacing my latterals . First off I have no neighbors so it Might not work for You. But the Solids float to the top Pretty Much . I bought a Electric little giant pump that just Uses Garden hoses the inlet has a little spring looking thing on it so it wont clog & burn the pump up .

I Just dropped it in about once a week & run a couple of hundred feet of garden hose out to the pasture to drain it. Worked well & the Smell wasn,t Very bad at least up by the house . It Might work for You depending on Your situation . The Pump & Hoses all cost about 100 bucks together & I use the Pump for other uses as well . Best of luck. Bob

 

[EddieWalker]

Not knowing your city or how strongly they are planning on putting the sewage system in really makes it hard in trying to decide if it's worth fixing the problem, or going to plan B. In my experience, and from what I'm reading about the financial situations of most cities, it could still be a few decades until anybody starts putting in sewage lines.

The first thing I would do before trying to play around with pumps and hoses is to find out what it will cost to get the leach fields fixed or replaced. Call a few companies out and get an estimate. They wont charge for this and then you'll know what you are dealing with. It might even be something else and turn out to be a quick fix.

Septic tanks have a baffle in them and an outlet pipe. Are you sure it's the leach field that's not working? Has this been going on for a period of time? Did it just happen? What is the sewage doing in the tank? Does it overflow? Is it backing up into the lines and not draining in the house?

While a sewage pump in a tank is exactly how a lift or collection station works, it's not very high on my list of ways to get rid of sewage. The size of the hose will be decided by the size of the pump. The size of the pump is decided by the distance and height that you are pumping the sewage. In my experience, you use Schedule 40 PVC pipe for this. The solids get churned up in the pump, but the paper and food solids are what requires a sewage pump.

I would never, EVER, run sewage through a garden hose, or any soft sided hose. I doubt the garden hose will even work, but don't know that one for sure. I'm guessing you need to be in the one inch to 1 1/2 inch size minimum anyway. But if you did manage to get a soft hose to work, the odds of it remaining sound and not leaking are very low. The second somebody catches you pumping sewage across your yard and it's leaking out of the pipe is the day you wish you had never been born. It will smell bad and all it takes is one complaint to get somebody out there. Is it really worth saving a buck to try to go this route?

This all gets very expensive real quickly. Depending on how slow the leach field is, if there is an obstruction in the outlet and how often you use your toilets, you might just pay to have the tank pumped when you need it emptied. Here, it's $80 to have a tank pumped. An empty tank can tank months to fill up. If you don't use it very often, it might be something that you only have to do a few times a year. To me, that's pretty cheap if you think the city is really going to run a sewage line to your place in the next year or so.

Godo luck,
Eddie

 

[tommu56]

I'm not a plumber and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn (if thats the chain) last night.
I have and still work on our waste water plant at work.

To put a pump in your tank you will need a grinder type pump at the minimum

I would think you have problem in the drain field, but have the tank pumped and make sure the outlet to field is OK.

Is there a way to tie the 2 drain fields together?

If you could intercept the water going to the drain field out of you septic tank you could use a pump with the smaller impeller and no grinderand smaller pipe or hose 1 11/2 - 2"

Is there any way to run your Grey water to a French drain and cut down on the loading of the septic (black water)

I had a similar problem 3 daughters wife and me and my son and had wet drain field in the rainy season and bought a low water usage washer and that helped alot with the 3 loads of wash a day. i fuguered $1,800 on a washer was better than $18,000 in new field.


eddie hit the nail on the head with his responce too.

our wwtp operator has a saying if it dosent go in your mouth it shoulden't go down the toilet.
he is refering to alot of the stuff flushed dosent decompose.
tom

 

[J_J]

You do know they have camera systems that can take a look down in the line, and perhaps it just might be a simple fix such as repair the bad section, or re-pipe with a pipe within a pipe, to get it out to the leach field. Someone mentioned to cross connect the output lines, to the good leach field. Have you been using that stuff that accelerates the bacteria to break down the sewage

Perhaps you can reroute the water from the showers, sinks and laundry to a French drain, instead of loading the septic tank. Three 55 gal plastic drums , with drain holes, and full of rock, about 10 ft apart, makes a good drain field. One line branching to three, one for each barrel

 

[Freds]

I really appreciate the responses, here's more info.

The septic was put in back when they didn't need permits. I have no idea what kind, if any, leach field there is. In the pic you can see the tank, my yard and the circular driveway/parking area for my business. We (oops, hit a button while typing) We did lots of trenching when building my business and didn't hit anything resembling a leach field. And neither did I when installing my fencing. And I'd really hate to tear up my dogs area and driveway to install another septic leach field, if the township would even let me.

I did contact a plumber back in March because my drains have always been slow and in anticipation of the upcoming sewer line. He mentioned redoing the pipes in my basement, coming out the side of the house into a holding tank and installing the sewage pump into that tank. Then running 2" PVC into my business' sewage line, which is on the right side of the building you see. At the same time he would lay a 4" line coming back the other way for future use. All to the tune of $3,200... back in March. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought this was a lot of money for basically a temporary fix when the sewer line gets put in. Of course, the longer they take to do this, the more it would be worth it I suppose.

So my buddy suggested just pumping the liquids out on an as needed basis like cowboy mentioned. BTW, why wouldn't a garden hose work for this? I don't think I've ever seen a garden hose leak or seep.

Anyway, Memorial Day weekend the toilet stuck on and the tank overflowed. I called a septic guy and had the tank pumped. $225 to pump tanks around here. This isn't going to be an option. And yesterday the toilet stuck on again, no idea why it's doing this, and I had another overflow incident.

Right now the kitchen sink and dishwasher and the toilet are the only lines running into the tank.

Aside from doing something that will work, not tearing things up is a big concern of mine. Especially if things will need torn up again when the sewers are put in.

And I don't think the neighbors will say anything if I stretch a hose every other Sunday and pump my house's tank into a working septic. Heck, my next door neighbor has a line running from his septic into a drain tile the township put in to handle the rainwater off the road. He certainly isn't going to say anything.

And if burying a plastic line with my subsoiler will work, I'll go that route. That won't tear things up too bad, but of course it wouldn't be very deep either. And I'm worried if this might freeze in the winter.
I know the sewer line that came out of my business wasn't more than 18-24 inches deep. The builder said it wouldn't freeze and it hasn't, but maybe the septic guy, who installed the outside work, ran it straight down into his line to get it below the frost line.... I wish I had paid more attention to how he was doing things now that I look back on it.

 

[J_J]

Freds,

No picture showed up, and you might have not finished a sentence.

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

first thing I would do is dig down around the outflow end of the tank and make sure the pipe from tank to laterals is still attached/not collapsed. This happened to a friend of mine a few years back and the umpteen thousand dollar repair she was fearing only cost about $400 when it turned out she didn't have to replace her lateral field, but only had to replace about 2 feet of pipe where things had shifted sideways enough to shut off the outflow.

 

[Egon]

Sounds like the pump would be real nuisance during the winter.

Consider getting some equipment in and start digging out the field starting from the tank. It may cost but sometimes you save by just accepting things rather than an ad hoc solution.

Civic projects sometimes have a tendency to drag on.

 

[Freds]

oops, when my message sent before I wanted it to I completely forgot about attaching the pic.
Here it is.

And I completely agree the hose would be a drag in the winter.

 

[tommu56]

And if burying a plastic line with my subsoiler will work, I'll go that route. That won't tear things up too bad, but of course it wouldn't be very deep either. And I'm worried if this might freeze in the winter.
.

You could burry a 1 1/2" polyethelene well type pipe with your sub soiler and leave the check off at the pump and pitch it to drain back in to the tank so it would be empty or almost empty and only full when pumping.

If this type pipe freezes it will expand and not breake like rigid pipes.
tom

 

[Freds]

You could burry a 1 1/2" polyethelene well type pipe with your sub soiler and leave the check off at the pump and pitch it to drain back in to the tank so it would be empty or almost empty and only full when pumping.

If this type pipe freezes it will expand and not breake like rigid pipes.
tom

That's what I was thinking, but running pipe on a pitch makes me nervous. Especially if just sinking it down a foot with my subsoiler. Immpossible to tell if it's on a pitch unless you are on ground that runs downhill.
Do you think the pump would blow it out and remove the liquids when removed from the tank?

 

[cowboy357]

Like I had said Freds in My previous post I wasn,t sure it was the best idea or would work for You I Recon it depends on the usage of it . Theres just the wife & I so the usage is more water then solids & only had to pump the tank once in 10 years .

I was just sharing what worked for Us for over a year & a half & also had no issues during the winter months You just have to plan around the weather around here theres very few times it will stay below feezing for more then about 5 days in a row.

As far as not using the garden hose , Thats Fine if others dont think You can or should , But I did & had no problems . I,m not one to hire things done or just throw money at things I can eventually fix Myself like most folks Which I eventually did do it right at a very small cost . I just do what I have to do to get by as We can afford it .

I also have a 40x60 building a couple of hundred feet that I built & it has an apartment in it More like a game room that has a toilet , shower & kitchen in it . I ran the 4inch sewar plumbing outside about 6 foot to an Enclosed underground insulated box that holds a sewer pump ( Grinder ) that pumps uphill to Our septic tank through a 2 inch buryed plastic pipe . That could be another option & Trenching the line for that wasn,t very intrusive to the property as I just Rented a little ditchwitch trenger 4 inch I believe .

Total cost for that was around 1100 bucks if I remember right & Included the Rental of the trencher , Pump & Pump enclosure , all the pipe necesary valves , Concrete & insulation . I did it by myself in 2 days .

Just some more thoughts on a posable solution to Your problem. Now I cant wait for someone to say You cant pump Sewage uphill . Best of luck Bob .

 

[tommu56]

That's what I was thinking, but running pipe on a pitch makes me nervous. Especially if just sinking it down a foot with my subsoiler. Immpossible to tell if it's on a pitch unless you are on ground that runs downhill.
Do you think the pump would blow it out and remove the liquids when removed from the tank?

If on an undetermined schedule from city I would put it in semi permanently.
Leave pump in tank plug it in at the house when you need it.
Leave it all hooked up and out of site except for cord coiled up in a planter set near your tank to disguise it.

And I know it's hard but train the family to wait for the toilet to stop flushing every one has better things to do. they just have to make sure their flapper is seated (Ill admit mine wont do it but you have to try)
Have them help you once with the disgusting job and they might see it in a different light


tom

 

[Dutch445]

Freds,
I don't think sewage freezes, most leach fields up here in NY aren't
that deep in the ground, and some rely on evaporation as well
as seepage into the ground.
I wonder if there is a concern about pumping a large quantity
all at once into the working system. I would think it would be
best to send the sewage in small amounts so not to tax and
over use that system and cause a failure there. ???
also, FIX THAT TOILET! immediately. you can't afford to have
that kind of extra wasted water usage when you are on limited
septic services.
good luck, and maybe you can start to pressure the town
for the city sewar line.

 

[Freds]

lol, I know you can pump sewage uphill. You should see where my buddy has to pump his to. it looks to be about a 45* angle. He lowered the ditch witch down the hill using a rope .

The simplest solution with the least intrusion on the land and something that I'll be happy with three years from now (if need be) is what I'm going for. That's what makes my decision so difficult. I do think I'll go with the buried well pipe as that will be one less thing to monkey with in winter. That is, if I can somehow clear the line out.

I also need to get that cover off today and see how much, if any, the level has gone down.

 

[Freds]

Yeah, somewhere in the back of my mind I was thinking that sewage didn't freeze either. It would be nice to know for sure.

 

[Egon]

Yeah, somewhere in the back of my mind I was thinking that sewage didn't freeze either. It would be nice to know for sure.

Do not fear; Sewage in a line expose to freezing temperatures will freeze!

 

[Highbeam]

I am certain that you can freeze sewage.

You are much better off allowing the septic tank to seperate the sludge and scum from the sewage and then hooking your pump up to the septic tank outlet. The outlet will be relatively clear water and you can pump it using a transfer pump instead of a grinder pump. They call this a Septic Tank Effluent Pump or STEP system.

You can buy a residential packaged grinder pump with its own sump for 2-3000$ that is designed to take the 4" line from the house and then pump it out to somewhere else through 1.5" line. That "somewhere else" can be your other septic tank or it can be the sewer line once the city gets it done. It won't be wasted money.

Your drainfield for the business is sized for the business. It will be overloaded and maybe destroyed by overloading it with your house waste. Don't get hung up on yard disturbance. Many yards have been completely trashed trying to deal with a septic problem.

First things first. Get the tank pumped and looked over by a qualified guy. Have your drainfield also inspected. You want to avoid allowing your health department discovering that your system has failed since they will red-tag your house if they find out about surfacing sewage. Chances are there is a quick fix to deal with the bad drainfield but keep it quiet.

 

[tommu56]

lol, I know you can pump sewage uphill. You should see where my buddy has to pump his to. it looks to be about a 45* angle. He lowered the ditch witch down the hill using a rope .

The simplest solution with the least intrusion on the land and something that I'll be happy with three years from now (if need be) is what I'm going for. That's what makes my decision so difficult. I do think I'll go with the buried well pipe as that will be one less thing to monkey with in winter. That is, if I can somehow clear the line out.

I also need to get that cover off today and see how much, if any, the level has gone down.

just plumb it so you can use a compressor like pool lines.

tom