Identifying "commercial" components in a zero turn

[Schneeky]

Hey guys, I'm lookin into a used "commercial" zero turn as an option to a belly mower on a forthcoming tractor. Long story, but right now I'm sharing one of the big box store JD's and can't say as I've been too impressed with it. Not to mention my "co-owner" seems to have mistaken it for a grader and part of my end, besides regular maintenance is blade upkeep. :laughing:
So anyways, checkin out the local dealers trade-ins & Craig's List there's a pile of used stuff available and I'm looking for light commercial. The current JD had a pump go out and they were threatening a $2500 part cause it was a "sealed unit". Luckily, the unit turned out to be on the tag end of a purchased extended warranty. But now I'm a bit gun shy of unserviceable major components.
I've done a decent bit of reading and see reference to Hydro-gears and stamped vs. fabbed decks, yadda yadda. So when looking at used mowers how do I identify those features from just looking? I tripped over a 7yo Gravely 250 (500hrs) for $2K and it looked like a real brute compared to this JD. But outside of the Kawasaki 601V I can't really tell what other components are on it.
Thanks for any help.. d:^) Schneeks..

 

[djdicetn]

Hey guys, I'm lookin into a used "commercial" zero turn as an option to a belly mower on a forthcoming tractor. Long story, but right now I'm sharing one of the big box store JD's and can't say as I've been too impressed with it. Not to mention my "co-owner" seems to have mistaken it for a grader and part of my end, besides regular maintenance is blade upkeep. :laughing:
So anyways, checkin out the local dealers trade-ins & Craig's List there's a pile of used stuff available and I'm looking for light commercial. The current JD had a pump go out and they were threatening a $2500 part cause it was a "sealed unit". Luckily, the unit turned out to be on the tag end of a purchased extended warranty. But now I'm a bit gun shy of unserviceable major components.
I've done a decent bit of reading and see reference to Hydro-gears and stamped vs. fabbed decks, yadda yadda. So when looking at used mowers how do I identify those features from just looking? I tripped over a 7yo Gravely 250 (500hrs) for $2K and it looked like a real brute compared to this JD. But outside of the Kawasaki 601V I can't really tell what other components are on it.
Thanks for any help.. d:^) Schneeks..

IMHO, it's gonna be tough to "look at" a used ZTR and determine which components are truly heavy duty/commercial/industrial grade:0(
I cannot find a "Gravely Model 250" on the Gravely website so again that's gonna be tough. I can give you a general guideline of what constitutes a commercial grade component, but again I'm not sure how you would determine whether a used model has that component just by looking at it. I will attach a link at the bottom of this message to the specifications for my Gravely(2012 Pro-Turn XDZ100 52") which indeed for 2012 was their "entry-level" commercial ZTR(in 2013 they added a "Base Pro-Turn" that is a little "less heavy duty", but still considered a commercial). Here are the components, in my opinion, that separate the Residential ZTR's from the Commercial ZTR's.
1)On the Kawasaki engines(you mentioned 601V), the "prefixes" used are FR-Residential; FS-Heavy Duty; FX-Commercial(mine has a FX691V).
2)The Hydro-Gear trannies are "serviceable" beginning with the ZT-2800, but the ZT-3100, ZT-3400 and ZT-5400 are what are considered "commercial grade".
3)7-gauge welded/fabricated decks are regarded as commercial with 10-gauge considered heavy-duty.
4)Spindles with cast-iron housings are considered commercial.
5)Commercial ZTR's normally come with a ROPS and full suspension seats.
6)Commercial ZTR's will be rated at a minimum of 18,000fpm blade tip speed.
7)ZTR's rated as Commercial will specifically have a X-Years "Commercial Warranty" stated in their Owners Manual.

Hope some of this info is helpful and below is a link to the specs on the Gravely Commercial ZTR I purchased last fall:

http://www.gravely.com/en-us/SeriesDownloads/SellSheet_ProTurn100.pdf

 

[Schneeky]

Hey DJD, thanks for the helpful response!!
And yeah, stuff like the nomenclature and such I can see when checking out the various components helps. And a list of features that designate commercial-ness helps as well. I just don't want a repeat of this cheesy little JD. Thanks.. d:^) Schneeks..

 

[djdicetn]

Hey DJD, thanks for the helpful response!!
And yeah, stuff like the nomenclature and such I can see when checking out the various components helps. And a list of features that designate commercial-ness helps as well. I just don't want a repeat of this cheesy little JD. Thanks.. d:^) Schneeks..

I hear ya....when I looked at the JD ZTR's I was disappointed that they wanted as much for a high-end Residential unit(with a 10-gauge "stamped" deck) as I paid for my Gravely Commercial:0(
JD's are way over-priced and I guess you're paying for the name(and green/yellow paint:0)
P.S.
If you decide to "buy new" to get a brand new ZTR with warranty, you'll most likely need to plan on spending $6K-$8K for a high-end Residential or entry-level Commercial unit. But you'll have a machine that if well-maintained will most likely outlive you!!

 

[Biggreenavalanche]

Djdicetn gave excellent pointers ! Ditto and well advised ! In my experience you get what you pay for in the ZT mower market...I personally have X-Mark and it is bullet proof but pricey...I've heard good things about Gravely as well...

 

[sox3]

The 250 z is a heavy duty machine. Those units had separate pumps and wheel motors. Hydraulic deck lift was optional on them and nice to have on a 72 inch cut. find out all you can about it, where it was serviced, how used, etc. Just because it has only 500 hrs on it doesn't mean it wasn't beat on. Does the hour meter work? Was it used by homeowner or commercial guy? Never saw any real issues with them as long as they were maintained.

 

[KYDan]

Watch what the commercial lawn services use in your area. Not the guy in his pickup but the big boys with crews. Usually, they use machines that require minimal maintenance under hard, daily use. I have an older JD 757 that I bought in new 2005 and it still runs great after 8 years of mowing 15+ acres of lawn and rough ground. I have not heard good things about the current JD units. Most of the major commercial lawn services in this area use Exmarks, although the horse farms seem to like the Kubotas.

 

[Schneeky]

sox3-The story I got from my guy at the dealership was that it was owned by an old man with a big residential yard to mow (sounded a l'il Grandma's grocery-getter-ish) and something went afoul that required repair at the local Gravely dealer. Meanwhile the grass hasn't quit growing and seems he was in the mood for a new mower so he bought a Kubota and used this one for trade when it got released from the shop. I'm gonna try and get the numbers off the unit Monday and see what I can find out about service history. I've bought from MC before and he gave me a fair deal on a nice Kubota with FEL & BM. I tried the Gravely around in the little test yard they had. Seemed OK.
Went to the Gravely dealer today and looked at new units. I saw that the new Gravely's did away with the hydraulic deck. The 60" was ~$5k. Saw a Troy built "Timecutter" that looked nice but also see those at Lowe's so I don't know what to think about that.

Thanks all for the responses and I'm hard lookin. Got some inventory sold this weekend so the coffers are gettin a bit fatter. Really wish I could do the tractor with a BM but just don't see it happenin for now. d:^) Schneeks..

 

[sox3]

The Timecutter is a homeowner unit and light duty. They still have deck lifts for the Gravelys. They are electric and on the 200 and 400 series. Usually only needed for the 60 and 72 inch decks.

 

[Schneeky]

Picked up the 250Z today. It looks pretty "commercial" to me.

Got the numbers this morning and checked with the local dealer. It was purchased in 2002, has had the hydraulics serviced 3x over the 500 hours, Homer did his own oil & filters. A few belt changes here and there. Looks to have been maintained. It'd been on the lot at Nash's all summer so I'm figuring on having to fool with the fuel system.
I got it home and it ran fine for a bit but started sputtering and shut off. Blowing black smoke and smelling "choked". Say it ain't so. Drained fuel. Broke out some fuel line & clamps. Went ahead and replaced all the fuel lines as they were in pretty bad shape. Fresh fuel, Sea Foamed. Still sputtering. Removed air filter. Perked right up. Blew out air filter. Reinstalled. Mowed front yard in 10 mins. Going to Honest Engine tomorrow for new air filter.

A coupla other little weirdies about it I'm not sure how to handle.. When starting it and I'm sitting not on it during troubleshooting it will start rotating right. The parking brake doesn't seem to be fully engaging. When I move the parking brake the deck lever and deck move with it unless I hold them. The steering levers don't return to neutral when let go. There's a lot of noise coming from the roadside deck area. Is any of this operator head space? Guess I prolly need to slide this over to the Gravely forum. Thanks for any help, fellas. d:^) Schneeks..

 

[djdicetn]

Well, some ethanol-related fuel problems are to be expected, but I'd say for the money($2k) you did good!!! Thanks for posting the pictures and from what I see I would guess that this mower is at least equivalent to the current high-end Residential ZT HD series or the current entry-level Commercial Pro-Turn Gravely's. I think with a little fine tuning and not any big dollar repairs you should get another 1,000 hours out of that machine. If you have a manual, the adjustment of the parking brake and steering lever neutral position(to keep it from creeping toward the right) shouldn't be too difficult. BTW, the steering levers on my new Gravely don't "automatically" return to neutral when I "let go of them"(which if I'm moving I don't do) but as I understand it if I pull back my handbrake while moving that will bring the levers back to neutral as well as probably throw me off the front of the mower:0) Noise from the deck would be the one thing to cause some concern because it may be a spindle bearing. Do you feel any "excessive" vibration mowing(usually accompanies bad bearings)?? If you manually turn the blade on that side with the mower not running is there any resistance to turning or can you feel/hear any grinding from that spindle? I hope that's not your problem though. Keep us posted on how things go and welcome to the growing Gravely clan on these forums!!!

 

[Biggreenavalanche]

Congrats, I think you did well for the money...I agree should last a long time with proper maintainence...

 

[BleedingOrange]

Commercial, and heavy duty, are words that seem to be way overused. I would closely check out whatever unit you are interested in, and feel you are getting your best bang for the buck.

 

[sox3]

You did good as that unit new was a top end commercial unit. If you adjust the linkage for the hydro. jack up the rear so you watch the wheel that is moving. Small adjustments at a time. You may have to put a jumper wire in the seat switch to keep it running with brake off. The adjusters are easy to get to on that unit if I remember correctly. To find the noise we would remove the belt from the deck and spin each blade and idler pulley. You will hear and feel if one has a bad bearing in it.

 

[djdicetn]

You did good as that unit new was a top end commercial unit. If you adjust the linkage for the hydro. jack up the rear so you watch the wheel that is moving. Small adjustments at a time. You may have to put a jumper wire in the seat switch to keep it running with brake off. The adjusters are easy to get to on that unit if I remember correctly. To find the noise we would remove the belt from the deck and spin each blade and idler pulley. You will hear and feel if one has a bad bearing in it.

That's excellent technical advice for the OP!!!! And I would guess that this 7-yr-old model had the separate hydro pumps & wheel motors instead of the unitized Hydro-Gear units that currently dominate the ZTR industry. Would probably be a good idea to check/replace the hydraulic hoses if there is any evidence of aging or leaking. And, like you, I hope the noise is an idler pully bearings....very inexpensive compared to my first reaction of spindle bearings. With only 500 hours it's doubtfull the spindles are having any problems!!

Guido455,
I totally agree with your statement and the "industry" is much to blame for how they describe their machines. IMHO, there needs to be a universal adaption to classifying ZTR's based upon their components. Something maybe like "Residential-Light Duty", "Residential-Heavy Duty", "Commercial-Light Duty", "Commercial-Heavy Duty" and then the ones designed for Professional Lawn Maintenance designated as "Industrial Duty". What I've seen as a common thread, regardless of brand, is those kind of categories with the "Residential-Light Duty" ZTR's as what you buy from Lowes, Home Depot, etc. and the remaining categories what you find at a "Lawn Equipment Dealer" that carries/services the dominant brands. That sure would make shopping/comparing/giving advice a LOT simpler don't you agree???

 

[Schneeky]

Hey fellas, I got distracted with boat work for a coupla days. Danged bill-payin' work cuttin in on my "fun" work. Hehehe.
One of the fuel lines I ran was apparently too close to something hot or that cooling fan (shoulda been a clue). So it got abraded/melted thru. Rerouted that. Thought I wouldn't like the hydraulic deck, but after a little use that bugger is schweet.!! Rummaged thru the paperwork and found receipts for service, a parts and owners manual.

sox3- Thanks much. I'll try that out and see what I can come up with. One thing I'm diggin is that they seem to have made this puppy to be easily worked on. Nice. Much different than the big-box JD.


Lookin forward to the grass growing back. Who'd-a-thunkit. d:^) Schneeks..

 

[sox3]

Yes, they are easy to work on. One you get all the little things fixed it will give you years of service.

 

[Schneeky]

Checked the deck and spindles. Spindle moved freely/smoothly w/o any grinding and quiet. I could feel a tiny bit of play side-to-side but couldn't actually see it. Prolly a few .001's. No excessive vibration I noticed with the blades engaged. I'm thiknin the noise I'm hearing is coming from the pulley/spindle covers. They're only secured on the one side and don't fit overly tight on the other. And given their shape they're 3/4 of a cowbell. Apt to be noisy, I'd say.
Put some slick'em on the moving parts and that seems to help a bit with things sliding instead of jerking.
Funny how that stuff works. d:^) Schneeks..