I'm considering having a solar panel electrical system installed.

[techman]

Are you looking for "off the grid", or just as a supplement for your utilities ?

I installed a 9200 watt grid tie system last year. So far I have been very pleased with my low electric bills, and we are not yet in the prime generation "season".

I was one of the last to get a PA state rebate before the money ran dry. However today the reduced price of the panels offsets the money that I received from the state.

paul

 

[EddieWalker]

Read this website about tax credits, DSIRE: DSIRE Home.

NC gives a 35% credit and the Feds give a 30%. Your power company may also provide credits.

Read the small print though for your state if they give credits. In NC you will almost certainly take years to get the full credit since the state will only credit a maximum of 50% of the state taxes you paid. You can roll over the credit for years until the system is paid off.

To get the credit from the state, the system has to be installed by a licensed company. It is NOT a DIY installation if you want the credit. I think the power company has the same requirement.

Figure an installed cost at $6-8 a watt for a grid tied system not using batteries. The price has been dropping but the last time I websearched that is the prices I found. If you find cheaper let us know.

Home Power magazine had an article that said that you will only get 65% of the power generated on the roof into your power outlet. That seems like a HUGE amount of loss to me.

Our house uses, on average, 41 KWH per day and our area gets 5 hours of good sunlight a day. If we put up a 5,000 watt system we would generate 25KWH and the system would cost $30,000-40,000. If the loss is really 35% then we would only be generating 3,250 wats or 16 KWH or 40% of our house hold needs.

Eventually the system would cost us $10,500-14,000 after tax credits came in but we would have to have enough cash or take out a loan to buy the system at $30,000-40,000. We would have to have a loan for the better part of a year before the Fed tax credit kicked in and paid us 30%. Then the state credits would take years to roll in.

Oh, by the way, a grid tied system DOES NOT work during a power outage. You would think there would be a way to work around this but I have not found the way. So if you want back up power you need batteries. Ching Ching goes the dollar. Some of the batteries I was looking at were $250 a piece and I would need 6-8 of them. They might last 2 to 8 years. Nobody really knows. So lets say the batteries lasted four years. Every four years I would have to replace $1,500-2,000 worth of batteries which is $31-41 a month in batteries. $30-40 a month is about a third of our average power bill.

Best case, meaning the system cost $6 a watt and we actually got 100% of the power generated at the outlets, the payoff is 12 years not including interest paid on the loan required to buy the system. Worse case the system would take 24 years to pay off if the cost is $8 a watt and we only get 65% of the power generation to use. If batteries are used it really is ugly money wise.

Later,
Dan

Great post Dan. I've been to a few homes that have solar systems to supply power, and I know a few people who wanted to go this route, but the numbers just don't work. Every one of those people would prefer to be on the grid if they could get power to where they live. While I'm sure some love being off the grid, I haven't met them. In person, you hear all the issues, maintenance, expense and lifestyle changes that come with it.

Staying on the grid and putting the money into energy efficiency, insulation and conservation make a lot more sense. For those who are off the grid, a very big part of their day to day life is not using power. You have to adjust and do without. Be energy concous and only use what you need, when you need it. No waste, and manage what is on at all times.

Eddie

 

[Rob-D]

Read this website about tax credits, DSIRE: DSIRE Home.

NC gives a 35% credit and the Feds give a 30%. Your power company may also provide credits.

Read the small print though for your state if they give credits. In NC you will almost certainly take years to get the full credit since the state will only credit a maximum of 50% of the state taxes you paid. You can roll over the credit for years until the system is paid off.

To get the credit from the state, the system has to be installed by a licensed company. It is NOT a DIY installation if you want the credit. I think the power company has the same requirement.

Figure an installed cost at $6-8 a watt for a grid tied system not using batteries. The price has been dropping but the last time I websearched that is the prices I found. If you find cheaper let us know.

Home Power magazine had an article that said that you will only get 65% of the power generated on the roof into your power outlet. That seems like a HUGE amount of loss to me.

Our house uses, on average, 41 KWH per day and our area gets 5 hours of good sunlight a day. If we put up a 5,000 watt system we would generate 25KWH and the system would cost $30,000-40,000. If the loss is really 35% then we would only be generating 3,250 wats or 16 KWH or 40% of our house hold needs.

Eventually the system would cost us $10,500-14,000 after tax credits came in but we would have to have enough cash or take out a loan to buy the system at $30,000-40,000. We would have to have a loan for the better part of a year before the Fed tax credit kicked in and paid us 30%. Then the state credits would take years to roll in.

Oh, by the way, a grid tied system DOES NOT work during a power outage. You would think there would be a way to work around this but I have not found the way. So if you want back up power you need batteries. Ching Ching goes the dollar. Some of the batteries I was looking at were $250 a piece and I would need 6-8 of them. They might last 2 to 8 years. Nobody really knows. So lets say the batteries lasted four years. Every four years I would have to replace $1,500-2,000 worth of batteries which is $31-41 a month in batteries. $30-40 a month is about a third of our average power bill.

Best case, meaning the system cost $6 a watt and we actually got 100% of the power generated at the outlets, the payoff is 12 years not including interest paid on the loan required to buy the system. Worse case the system would take 24 years to pay off if the cost is $8 a watt and we only get 65% of the power generation to use. If batteries are used it really is ugly money wise.

Later,
Dan

Dan,
Are you living off the grid?
Because I am. I'm net zero, which means I don't pay a dime for electricity. I have two systems an intertie and an off grid. The intertie, for those who don't know the terminology, requires no batteries, it feeds power back to the grid. If I use less power than I send back to the grid I am net zero. Since I also have an off grid system I only have to use it when the power goes down. My batteries last indefinitely and while we are on the subject of batteries, do you understand battery technology? Because what you are saying is completely wrong.

This summer I'll be putting in wind and microhydro to compliment my solar, my goal is to heat my house with alternate energy next winter and every enter winter after that.
I see people buying TV's for a couple of grand and then saying alternate energy is too expensive.
How about this, educate yourselves! Alternate energy is the future, not fossil fuel. We could have long debates about when oil will run out but the truth is that it will run out at some point in history, just like whale oil did, the only solution for the planet is renewable energy. Period!
All the major new technology coming out is focused on renewables. Go ask Japan what they think of nuclear, how would you like to be sitting in the dark while you're absorbing radiation which, by the way, is now in our milk. Japan is going to renewables.
Anyone can do what I've done so educate yourselves. It always cracks me up that everyone knows who won the super bowl but only a handful of people actually know what is a going on and how to live in a changing world while the rest of the people waddle around in a fog resisting change because at the core of it they are afraid of change.

Rob

 

[grsthegreat]

Dan,
Are you living off the grid?
Because I am. I'm net zero, which means I don't pay a dime for electricity. I have two systems an intertie and an off grid. The intertie, for those who don't know the terminology, requires no batteries, it feeds power back to the grid. If I use less power than I send back to the grid I am net zero. Since I also have an off grid system I only have to use it when the power goes down. My batteries last indefinitely and while we are on the subject of batteries, do you understand battery technology? Because what you are saying is completely wrong.

This summer I'll be putting in wind and microhydro to compliment my solar, my goal is to heat my house with alternate energy next winter and every enter winter after that.
I see people buying TV's for a couple of grand and then saying alternate energy is too expensive.
How about this, educate yourselves! Alternate energy is the future, not fossil fuel. We could have long debates about when oil will run out but the truth is that it will run out at some point in history, just like whale oil did, the only solution for the planet is renewable energy. Period!
All the major new technology coming out is focused on renewables. Go ask Japan what they think of nuclear, how would you like to be sitting in the dark while you're absorbing radiation which, by the way, is now in our milk. Japan is going to renewables.
Anyone can do what I've done so educate yourselves. It always cracks me up that everyone knows who won the super bowl but only a handful of people actually know what is a going on and how to live in a changing world while the rest of the people waddle around in a fog resisting change because at the core of it they are afraid of change.

Rob

how many tens of thousands of $$$ have you spent to be getting free electricity?

 

[Rob-D]

What guidance can you share with me?



Thanks!

Don,
The first thing you have to do is assess your energy needs. You can pick up something called a P3 for under $30.00 that will enable you to measure each appliance in your house and your energy usage. Also check your monthly energy bill and check your total monthly KWH usage. This is how many watt hours you use in a month.
You also have to decide if you want to live off grid or intertie and simply reduce your bill.

Do you live in a place that gets a lot of sun? Do you have a stream, a good wind site? All these things will help you decide what is best for you.
Hydro is the best if you have it because you get power 24/7. Solar is next because the up keep is very low. Wind is the least favorable but it does compliment solar, that is, when the sun is in the clouds the wind is usually blowing.

Alternate energy is very viable BUT you have to know what you are doing. A solar dealer may give you a rosy picture because he wants to sell solar systems just like a car dealer who wants to sell you a car. Caveat emptor.

Go to your library and see if they have back issues of Homepower, it's a great magazine with lots of info.

Rob

Rob

 

[dmccarty]

Dan,
Are you living off the grid?
Because I am. I'm net zero, which means I don't pay a dime for electricity. I have two systems an intertie and an off grid. The intertie, for those who don't know the terminology, requires no batteries, it feeds power back to the grid. If I use less power than I send back to the grid I am net zero. Since I also have an off grid system I only have to use it when the power goes down. My batteries last indefinitely and while we are on the subject of batteries, do you understand battery technology? Because what you are saying is completely wrong.

This summer I'll be putting in wind and microhydro to compliment my solar, my goal is to heat my house with alternate energy next winter and every enter winter after that.
I see people buying TV's for a couple of grand and then saying alternate energy is too expensive.
How about this, educate yourselves! Alternate energy is the future, not fossil fuel. We could have long debates about when oil will run out but the truth is that it will run out at some point in history, just like whale oil did, the only solution for the planet is renewable energy. Period!
All the major new technology coming out is focused on renewables. Go ask Japan what they think of nuclear, how would you like to be sitting in the dark while you're absorbing radiation which, by the way, is now in our milk. Japan is going to renewables.
Anyone can do what I've done so educate yourselves. It always cracks me up that everyone knows who won the super bowl but only a handful of people actually know what is a going on and how to live in a changing world while the rest of the people waddle around in a fog resisting change because at the core of it they are afraid of change.

Rob

No, I am not using a system. I cannot afford one.

The battery information I stated was what a company selling batteries and solar powered systems said regarding battery lifetime. The company stated that battery lifetime is hard to predict and depended on how much or how little they were used. Using very little was as bad as using too much. What I took away from their website is that four years might be a low average lifetime.

How long have you been running your batteries?
What did they cost?
How many watts do you have installed?
How much did it cost per watt?
Are all of your appliances electric or do you use gas powered stoves and fridge?
Do you have AC cooling?
What heats the house?

Later,
Dan

 

[Rob-D]

how many tens of thousands of $$$ have you spent to be getting free electricity?

I always get this question.

First my intertie is totally free, actually I think I made a couple of grand on it. It was a grant from my rural power coop power, so not only is it free but everyone in the coop benefits from a reduced bill as my surplus energy is sold.

I did pay for my off grid system, about 15k but payback, especially when it starts supplementing my heat, is very short. This summer I'll add about 20 panels to it which will triple my off grid power but the cost will be under 5k because I already have the inverters, etc. in place and paid for.

I did all the installs myself so I saved a lot but it's about educating yourself and what's important to you.
I'll bet you know who won the super bowl, I don't even know what day it was much less who was in it BUT I can install an alternate energy system. I can make a wind mill from scratch and I can make a microhydro for pennies that will have an immediate payback and that's how i plan on spending my summer.

Next I'll be doing an electric car for less money than most people pay for theirs.
So, bottom line, for the price of a cheap car I'll heat my house and have free electric for the next 30 years.

The question you should be asking is how much it's costing you not to educate yourself... enjoy the ball game.

Rob

 

[newbury]

And don't forget natures solar power storage - Wood.
I've got a small sawmill and can see I'm going to be generating a LOT of scrap wood. Heating my house is minimal in my neck of the woods. I've got to figure out how to run a generator on woodgas.

Look like an excuse to buy a chipper!


Home Gasifier Experimenters Kit

 

[Rob-D]

No, I am not using a system. I cannot afford one.

The battery information I stated was what a company selling batteries and solar powered systems said regarding battery lifetime. The company stated that battery lifetime is hard to predict and depended on how much or how little they were used. Using very little was as bad as using too much. What I took away from their website is that four years might be a low average lifetime.

How long have you been running your batteries?
What did they cost?
How many watts do you have installed?
How much did it cost per watt?
Are all of your appliances electric or do you use gas powered stoves and fridge?
Do you have AC cooling?
What heats the house?

Later,
Dan

First, batteries are rated in cycles, that is, the deeper you cycle and the number of cycles determine how long the batteries last. So someone like me who has an off and on grid system that is greater than the power they use only employs the batteries when the power is down (3 or 4 times a year for me)

Batts have been in 6 years.

cost me ~1.6k

My intertie is 6.4KW
My off grid is about 1.8k with about another 3.5k going in this summer.

The intertie was free the rest of the system cost me about 15k and another 5k this summer, take 30% off both for rebates (~ 14k total cost)
The microhydro and wind will come in under .5K cost.

All electric except stove (gas) about $30 to $40 a month.

No AC, only need AC about 10 days a year.

Heat with oil, going to alternate energy this summer.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

And don't forget natures solar power storage - Wood.
I've got a small sawmill and can see I'm going to be generating a LOT of scrap wood. Heating my house is minimal in my neck of the woods. I've got to figure out how to run a generator on woodgas.

Look like an excuse to buy a chipper!


Home Gasifier Experimenters Kit

Yes, wood works. We have a Tulikivi wood stove with an oven in it that we make bread and cook in during the winter.

Stirling engines are coming back and show promise, they're safe and work with any heat source.
Rob