I'm Gonna Drill My Rops...
- Thread starter Henro
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MadDog
Platinum Member
Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
A very lawyerly analysis, Big Pete, as is your consideration of ignoring your own advice. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
A very lawyerly analysis, Big Pete, as is your consideration of ignoring your own advice. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
I think there are three issues here:
1. Is the ROPS going to fail in a roll-over from a couple of small holes drilled in it in non-critical locations?
2. Even if the tractor is never involved in a roll-over, are there down-sides to drilling the ROPS?
3. Do you plan to sell your tractor or allow it to be used by employees or other operators other than yourself?
I think the answer to question 1 is: Not significantly more likely to fail. I don't think they hardly ever fail anyways. At least on my tractor, the thing seems pretty well over-built. I think you could bounce my tractor on its head off of a two story building and the ROPS would only get bent a little.
In terms of 2, yes, there is a down side. The safety equipment is either certified or it is not. Potential purchasers in a re-sale situation may care about the certification. Subsequent events after the sale may lead to somebody caring if it was certified or not. If modified, no matter how seemingly insignificant the modification, the certification is technically voided. There are two options to getting it re-certified. A: Buy and install a replacement from the manufacturer, or B: submit your modifications for certification to the appropriate standards body. Both options are probably expensive.
If the answer to #3 is no, then you don't have to worry about being the Defendant in any possible lawsuits. You (or your estate) could still end up being the Plaintiff if you hurt yourself and you want to sue the manufacturere or dealer. Your case may be weakened if it can be demonstrated that you willfully and/or negligently removed or modified safety equipment that contributed to your death or injury.
Of course, there are lots of modifications that can indeed make the ROPS a lot weaker than it originally was:
If it is heat-treated, welding (or attempted drilling) will remove the temper over a larger area than just the size of the weld or hole.
I would be concerned about any changes to the hinge mechanism or near the hinge mechanism on a folding ROPS.
I would worry about any changes near any bends.
I would worry about changes down at the bottom where it attaches to the tractor and axle.
I would worry about changes that can cause water or moisture to be trapped in a critical location causing corrosion (this could be caused by plugging an existing drain hole).
If any fasteners are swapped, I would be concerned that the replacement be of the same size and grade.
I would be concerned about attaching anything that intrudes into the operator "safe envelope" like lights hung below or on the inner side of the ROPS.
I would be concerned about any equipment attached that could severly stress the ROPS. For example, a bad backhoe mounting design that connects to the part of the ROPS down near the rear axle, or a winch or something.
Even if the ROPS is not modified, the safety of the whole system could be compromised by adding equipment in a poorly chosen location. The only difference of using clamps to add lights in a bad place would be that they can be removed before re-sale.
- Rick
I think there are three issues here:
1. Is the ROPS going to fail in a roll-over from a couple of small holes drilled in it in non-critical locations?
2. Even if the tractor is never involved in a roll-over, are there down-sides to drilling the ROPS?
3. Do you plan to sell your tractor or allow it to be used by employees or other operators other than yourself?
I think the answer to question 1 is: Not significantly more likely to fail. I don't think they hardly ever fail anyways. At least on my tractor, the thing seems pretty well over-built. I think you could bounce my tractor on its head off of a two story building and the ROPS would only get bent a little.
In terms of 2, yes, there is a down side. The safety equipment is either certified or it is not. Potential purchasers in a re-sale situation may care about the certification. Subsequent events after the sale may lead to somebody caring if it was certified or not. If modified, no matter how seemingly insignificant the modification, the certification is technically voided. There are two options to getting it re-certified. A: Buy and install a replacement from the manufacturer, or B: submit your modifications for certification to the appropriate standards body. Both options are probably expensive.
If the answer to #3 is no, then you don't have to worry about being the Defendant in any possible lawsuits. You (or your estate) could still end up being the Plaintiff if you hurt yourself and you want to sue the manufacturere or dealer. Your case may be weakened if it can be demonstrated that you willfully and/or negligently removed or modified safety equipment that contributed to your death or injury.
Of course, there are lots of modifications that can indeed make the ROPS a lot weaker than it originally was:
If it is heat-treated, welding (or attempted drilling) will remove the temper over a larger area than just the size of the weld or hole.
I would be concerned about any changes to the hinge mechanism or near the hinge mechanism on a folding ROPS.
I would worry about any changes near any bends.
I would worry about changes down at the bottom where it attaches to the tractor and axle.
I would worry about changes that can cause water or moisture to be trapped in a critical location causing corrosion (this could be caused by plugging an existing drain hole).
If any fasteners are swapped, I would be concerned that the replacement be of the same size and grade.
I would be concerned about attaching anything that intrudes into the operator "safe envelope" like lights hung below or on the inner side of the ROPS.
I would be concerned about any equipment attached that could severly stress the ROPS. For example, a bad backhoe mounting design that connects to the part of the ROPS down near the rear axle, or a winch or something.
Even if the ROPS is not modified, the safety of the whole system could be compromised by adding equipment in a poorly chosen location. The only difference of using clamps to add lights in a bad place would be that they can be removed before re-sale.
- Rick
JerryG
Super Member
Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
I have stayed out of this so far, but now I am going to add a cent worth. I will never modify a ROPS and if I did I would never tell anyone else or advise them to. Here is the reason. Here we are telling how WE THINK it is safe. The modifications that I make may be. Someone else that doesn’t have the training and or the back ground in machining, equipment or what ever decides to try it also. That’s fine right, but they think, that well the hole needs to be two sizes bigger or two inches closer to the hinge or to the bend. Looks good and all is well Right. Just a little bigger hole or a little closer to something it shouldn’t be Right. O’well No problem it they mess up because of what they tried to like we did. To bad their widow doesn’t think like that Right.
I have stayed out of this so far, but now I am going to add a cent worth. I will never modify a ROPS and if I did I would never tell anyone else or advise them to. Here is the reason. Here we are telling how WE THINK it is safe. The modifications that I make may be. Someone else that doesn’t have the training and or the back ground in machining, equipment or what ever decides to try it also. That’s fine right, but they think, that well the hole needs to be two sizes bigger or two inches closer to the hinge or to the bend. Looks good and all is well Right. Just a little bigger hole or a little closer to something it shouldn’t be Right. O’well No problem it they mess up because of what they tried to like we did. To bad their widow doesn’t think like that Right.
pajoube
Veteran Member
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Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
Most warranties are good for one year. Most of us will keep our tractors longer than one year.
PJ
Most warranties are good for one year. Most of us will keep our tractors longer than one year.
PJ
dbelisle
Gold Member
Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
I went through the same thing trying to install lights on my ROPS . I wasn't really concerned about there integrity, But any time you modify something that has been engineered your on your own if you have any problems.
I don't plan on getting rid of my tractor anytime soon , but if I and when I do I don't want that to be a issue.
My solution was to take a piece of angle iron and mount the lights on that. Then I picked up a set of U bolts at the local NAPA store.
I still have to cut the extra lengths on the bolts and brackets off before the spring when I put the backhoe on.
I have included a picture to show how I solved the problem.
Good Luck and I am sure what you decide will work well.
Mahindra 2810 HST
I went through the same thing trying to install lights on my ROPS . I wasn't really concerned about there integrity, But any time you modify something that has been engineered your on your own if you have any problems.
I don't plan on getting rid of my tractor anytime soon , but if I and when I do I don't want that to be a issue.
My solution was to take a piece of angle iron and mount the lights on that. Then I picked up a set of U bolts at the local NAPA store.
I still have to cut the extra lengths on the bolts and brackets off before the spring when I put the backhoe on.
I have included a picture to show how I solved the problem.
Good Luck and I am sure what you decide will work well.
Mahindra 2810 HST
dbelisle
Gold Member
AndyMA
Elite Member
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Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Most warranties are good for one year. Most of us will keep our tractors longer than one year.
PJ )</font>
There is no limit on the length of time for the responsibility for safety issues. Companies have been taken to court for products built in the 1800's not by themselves, but by companies they purchased and held responsible for injuries caused by theses long forgotten products. Even when individuals removed safety shields, etc. the company who made the product has been held responsible. As a product design engineer, we have this drilled into us by our safety engineers, over and over again. You never outlive the safety responsibility for a product. Also remember, it's the one's with the deep pockets who get sued.
Andy
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Most warranties are good for one year. Most of us will keep our tractors longer than one year.
PJ )</font>
There is no limit on the length of time for the responsibility for safety issues. Companies have been taken to court for products built in the 1800's not by themselves, but by companies they purchased and held responsible for injuries caused by theses long forgotten products. Even when individuals removed safety shields, etc. the company who made the product has been held responsible. As a product design engineer, we have this drilled into us by our safety engineers, over and over again. You never outlive the safety responsibility for a product. Also remember, it's the one's with the deep pockets who get sued.
Andy
Mrwurm
Veteran Member
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Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
Just to throw another perspective into the fray.... When I sold my old tractor two years ago, I showed it to five dealers to obtain trade-in pricing. The tractor had originally been equipped with a ROPS but it had been removed by the original owner. None of the dealers made any mention of this at all. It was a non-issue. The prices I obtained were actually quite high for a twenty year old tractor.
Also, some have mentioned the high cost of a replacement ROPS. When I first bought the old tractor (JD 650), I inquired with the dealer about getting a replacement ROPS for the missing unit. The price was only about $150. The dealer said that Deere sells safety equipment at cost. Maybe other manufacturers do as well ?
Just to throw another perspective into the fray.... When I sold my old tractor two years ago, I showed it to five dealers to obtain trade-in pricing. The tractor had originally been equipped with a ROPS but it had been removed by the original owner. None of the dealers made any mention of this at all. It was a non-issue. The prices I obtained were actually quite high for a twenty year old tractor.
Also, some have mentioned the high cost of a replacement ROPS. When I first bought the old tractor (JD 650), I inquired with the dealer about getting a replacement ROPS for the missing unit. The price was only about $150. The dealer said that Deere sells safety equipment at cost. Maybe other manufacturers do as well ?
Egon
Epic Contributor
Re: I\'m Gonna Drill My Rops...
Ah shuckings; I aint got no ROP'S so how can I drill it.
Egon
Ah shuckings; I aint got no ROP'S so how can I drill it.
Egon