Injector trouble

[DennisStahley]

dennis if you are getting diesel out of your lines going to the injectors you do not have a solenoid turned off. If it is an older tractor it might not have an electrical solenoid. I would higly recomend calling a dealer of your tractor and asking them how to shut it off before you get it started. It will probably have a mechanical shutoff somewhere. This will be a knob attatched to a cable like an old time mechanical choke cable.

Hi Gemini5362

I went to the dealer today and no there is not a solenoid as you say, there is a manual shut off or decompression lever I guess ya pull to shut it off,there is not a cable on it but it is on the front of engine, so I will try this.
Thanks
Dennis

 

[DennisStahley]

The older ones don't usually have a solenoid. Actually my 1999 model L2500 does not either. Dennis is getting fuel out of the top of the pump...where the injection lines connect.

Still say as others it's probably something simple...but it's dang hard to reach through the internet.

Hi RobJ

Yes it probably is something simple (but so am I) and we just haven't found it yet. And you are correct there is not a solenoid on this old model, and I am getting diesel so getting closer.
Thanks for the reply's
Dennis

 

[DennisStahley]

Take a look at your dashboard to see if there is a pull knob that operates a shutoff in the injector. My 1966 Massey Ferguson 135 has such a knob (pull out to start the engine with the key switch, push in to shut the engine off). My guess is that you have a key-switch-operated solenoid valve for that purpose since your Kubota is a 1970s vintage tractor. It may be stuck partially closed.

Hi flusher

No there is not a knob but the cable is off the decompress lever which shuts it off I think? The dealer told me today there is no solenoid in the pump so that is not the problem(dont know what is either) But am trying everything you all tell me to try getting closer.
Thanks for the help keep sugestions comming
Dennis

 

[DennisStahley]

I would not reccomend that he tears the injector pump apart. Some of us especially me do not have the tools or the required skills to tear an injector pump apart and put it back together again. If I tried that it would be an expensive visit to the shop before that injector pump worked again.

I dont think he has any problems other than air. I am not a diesel mechanic but since my old massey ferguson did not have a fuel gauge I am an expert at running out of diesel. A couple of times when it did I thought something was broken because I could not get it to bleed enough to start. The way he talks about having air bubbles come out sounds like air in the sytem and the way the diesel kind of squirts out sounds exactly like what I saw when I had the lines off. Diesel woukd kind of squirt out a bit but nothing major. If he is seeing it shoot an inch that is more than I saw. Here is what I would recomend if he has the ability to do it.

Put everything back together find the bleed valves on the pump itself. If you need to call a dealer service department and ask them. Open up one bleeder valve and turn the starter over until it is solid fuel. Close that then open the other bleeder valve and turn the engine over until it is solid fuel take one line loose at the injector. Leave it hooked up just loosen it until diesel fuel can squirt out of it Get someone with a pickup to tow you. Put the tractor in high range and the lowest gear of that range push in the clutch until the tractor gets moving then let out the clutch. If the truck pulling you is not big enough to pull at that range then keep going up in gears until the truck can pull the tractor with the clutch out. Pull the tractor slowly. 5-10 miles an hour. Pull for about a half mile then tighten the 1st injector line and loosen the second one. during this process you should be seeing fuel shooting out of the open line while you are being pulled. It will not be like anything coming out of a car wash hose just see it squirting out some. After another half mile stop and tighten the second injector line and loosen the third. Pull the tractor again for another half mile. The half mile is just subjective i think I actually pulled mine a total of 1/2 mile for three injectors but like I said I am not very patient. This should get everything bled and it should start while the third line is loosened. There were several times with my Massey that I could not bleed it with the manual bleeder or the starter ( I am sure due to a lack of patience on my part) The towing it method worked every time. My massey was a 4 cylinder and usually it started by the time I took the third line off so yours might start after you get the second line bleeding. If it does then just stop the tractor and let it bleed for a couple of seconds then loosen the third line and let it bleed. I would go back and do all three lines a second time and see if the tractor sounds like it is running smoother.

If you do not get fuel out of the first line then you might have something shut off but since you are getting fuel out of the injector with the lines off I dont imagine you do.

Make sure you call a dealer and ask how to shut it off. If you wind up having to shut the fuel off at the petcock you will just get air in all the lines again and you will be repeating this procedure over.

good luck

Hi Gemini5362
Yes I will give this a try as I said went to dealer today and talked to a tech. he said no solnoid in pump he said the thing he would check first is the compression to see if I had enough to start it. I ordered a comp. tester off E-Bay and should be here thursday I hope. There is a decompression lever to turn off if I get it started I think? But I will try some of this ideas tomorrpw and see if any luck.
Thanks for the help keep it comming we will pervale(haha)
Dennis

 

[gemini5362]

my kubota has both a decompression lever and a manual fuel shutoff. The manual fuel shutoff is to stop the engine when it starts. The decompression lever is to aid starting the motor. If the decompression lever is open it will spin extremely fast. If it turns over just a normal engine sound turn over like a car does or something like that the decompression lever is not open. On my older kubotsa b6100 I have a knob that you pull on the right side that is for my fuel shutoff. I have a knob on the left side that you pull that is for the decompression. both knobs are attatched to levers on the engine and have to be pushed back in to make things work. I still think your biggest problem like I said is air. Do you have any way to pull it like I suggested ?

 

[DennisStahley]

my kubota has both a decompression lever and a manual fuel shutoff. The manual fuel shutoff is to stop the engine when it starts. The decompression lever is to aid starting the motor. If the decompression lever is open it will spin extremely fast. If it turns over just a normal engine sound turn over like a car does or something like that the decompression lever is not open. On my older kubotsa b6100 I have a knob that you pull on the right side that is for my fuel shutoff. I have a knob on the left side that you pull that is for the decompression. both knobs are attatched to levers on the engine and have to be pushed back in to make things work. I still think your biggest problem like I said is air. Do you have any way to pull it like I suggested ?

Hi Gemini5362
Ok I know where the decompression lever is I will have to look at my manual to see where fuel shut off lever is if it has one? The tech. didn't say anything about it but maybe he didn't know I was this dumb to not know about a fuel shut off lever(haha) I will check this tomorrow, I know there is a lever on top of or beside the pump that controls the pump I dont know if this is all it has the tech. told me it was a simple thing just a slide bar to pump to get fuel??
Thanks for input I will ck. this out tomorrow, keep em comming we will get this thing going sooner or later, I am going to see if I can get someone to pull me to get it started like you sugested.
Dennis

 

[mopacman]

you said that you got a small amount of fuel out of the pump. This is normal because the pump pumps only the amount of fuel that it needs to run. their is a fuel shut off lever on the pump. my L245DT is out of town so I cant look at it to tell you where the lever is exactly. You can use starting fluid but do not use glow plugs at the same time. If you are getting fuel out of the lines at the Injector you are very close to getting it started. If it has a block heater plug it in for about 40 minuts, this will help it start.

 

[DennisStahley]

you said that you got a small amount of fuel out of the pump. This is normal because the pump pumps only the amount of fuel that it needs to run. their is a fuel shut off lever on the pump. my L245DT is out of town so I cant look at it to tell you where the lever is exactly. You can use starting fluid but do not use glow plugs at the same time. If you are getting fuel out of the lines at the Injector you are very close to getting it started. If it has a block heater plug it in for about 40 minuts, this will help it start.

Hi Mopacman

well it is something I have got a response from someone that has a L245DT no one I have talked to has one of these old tractors.yes I am getting fuel to the injectors now, and as for the lever I think it is next to the pump a control lever and I think it is sliding like it should?I was told by the. tech. at the dealer here in town that I should check the compression first as it needs lots of compression to run, but I dont think this is my problem, I think I still have air in fues even though I have blead both the filter and pump when I took off injector line was getting aie still, maybe I did not crank it enough to get the air out I will try one at a time today and see what I get. Thanks for the reply and if you can see where the lever is and take a pic. of it and send it that would be great.
Dennis

 

[john_bud]

The older ones don't usually have a solenoid. Actually my 1999 model L2500 does not either. Dennis is getting fuel out of the top of the pump...where the injection lines connect.

Still say as others it's probably something simple...but it's dang hard to reach through the internet.

Oops! Forgot the vintage!

jb

 

[RobJ]

Oops! Forgot the vintage!

jb

Hey mines not that old either!!

I guess it depends on the trim level and age. Mine is just a gear model. No frills.

 

[gemini5362]

I believe what some of the posters are saying about putting your thumb over the opening and the high pressure deals with volume. The way I tend to think of it is a pressure washer. If you put the nozzle with the biggest hole in it on your pressure washer the pressure coming out of the nozzle is very small even though the pump can build a lot of pressure it does not have a lot of volume to work with. If you put the nozzle with the smallest hole on it. The pressure will gouge wood and take paint off. Because the pump has enough volume to build high pressure for a small opening. I think that fuel injector lines are the same way. if you have the line full of fuel and a very small opening that is the inector the pump builds a lot of pressure. With an open line the pump does not have the volume of fuel to build high pressure in a large opening. That is why I think that when you have an open line you dont see 2500 psi coming out of that line. Just some fuel squirting out.

 

[RobJ]

I believe what some of the posters are saying about putting your thumb over the opening and the high pressure deals with volume. The way I tend to think of it is a pressure washer. If you put the nozzle with the biggest hole in it on your pressure washer the pressure coming out of the nozzle is very small even though the pump can build a lot of pressure it does not have a lot of volume to work with. If you put the nozzle with the smallest hole on it. The pressure will gouge wood and take paint off. Because the pump has enough volume to build high pressure for a small opening. I think that fuel injector lines are the same way. if you have the line full of fuel and a very small opening that is the inector the pump builds a lot of pressure. With an open line the pump does not have the volume of fuel to build high pressure in a large opening. That is why I think that when you have an open line you dont see 2500 psi coming out of that line. Just some fuel squirting out.

You make a good point. To make pressure you also need some resistance. Small opening as you mentioned. It's different that running your finger over a pressure washer that has already built it's pressure and force. As someone mentioned my finger isn't going to hold much pressure.

The injection pump has a plunger about as big around as a pencil and is a positive displacement type pump. The pump itself is capible of over 10000 psi, the injector pops somewhere around 2000+-.

 

[mopacman]

When you are trying to start it you should get white smoke out the exhaust if you are gitting fuel. If no smoke you could still have a fuel problem. If you are gitting white smoke than thair is not enough heat to start it.

 

[DennisStahley]

When you are trying to start it you should get white smoke out the exhaust if you are gitting fuel. If no smoke you could still have a fuel problem. If you are gitting white smoke than thair is not enough heat to start it.

Hi
where does it get heat from the combustion?? That is why I have to ck. the compression to see what I got right?

Dennis

 

[mopacman]

you get heat from compression and glow plugs. mine will not start with out using glow plugs unless it has been running. If I run mine out of fuel I bleed mine like you do then I have to use ether to start it and keep it running till the fuel takes over. once I get it started it starts ok. Does your glow plug indecater work?

 

[gemini5362]

you get heat from compression and glow plugs. mine will not start with out using glow plugs unless it has been running. If I run mine out of fuel I bleed mine like you do then I have to use ether to start it and keep it running till the fuel takes over. once I get it started it starts ok. Does your glow plug indecater work?

mopacman that is what I was doing when I blew holes in pistons. I would not reccomend useing ether (starting fluid) to keep it running while it is bleeding and getting the fuel up to pressure. That is really hard on an engine.

 

[john_bud]

mopacman that is what I was doing when I blew holes in pistons. I would not reccomend useing ether (starting fluid) to keep it running while it is bleeding and getting the fuel up to pressure. That is really hard on an engine.

Ether is to a diesel engine as untreated wood porches are to carpenters. They both are kept busy fixing them!


If you don't want to run the battery to bleed the system, get a car or truck and pull the tractor around in 4th gear with the ignition on.

 

[mopacman]

gemini The tractor has been blead to the injectors. I agree that it may be hard on some diesels but some come with provisions to use ether. I have worked 40 years in a diesel shop. We delt with lot of engines that have been setting dead for a long time and the only way to get them started was to use ether. Some of these engines it took over 24 hours strate to get started.

 

[DennisStahley]

gemini The tractor has been blead to the injectors. I agree that it may be hard on some diesels but some come with provisions to use ether. I have worked 40 years in a diesel shop. We delt with lot of engines that have been setting dead for a long time and the only way to get them started was to use ether. Some of these engines it took over 24 hours strate to get started.

Hi Mopacman

Well I dont beleave it but I got the thing running today, with starting fluid sprayed till it finally started and ran on its own for about 10 minutes or so, then shut it off and would not start on its own until I sprayed starting fluid again. But I think my injectors at least one of them is bad as diesel leaks out so must be sucking air (IMO) so I took all of them out and am going to take them to the shop tomorrow and see if they can check them for me? I dont know if they can do that but I would think they can?? This is the first time its been running in 3 years. I got the compression checker in and it has a adapter to do it in the glow plugs I dont know if it does it right one cyl said 400psi one 300psi one 200psi but the book says 470 psi. I would not think it would run if it only had these readings what do you think?? Or is this the reason I needed the SF to get it started?? It ran pretty good for the first time some black smoke came out and it was pinging from the SF at first then stopped pinging. I am getting good pressure to the injectors but I am still getting air out when I loosen up the line at the injector I dont know why as I have blead the fuel filter and the injector pump, several times to make sure no air. I dont know if it could be sucking air around the one injector I mentioned above if so I dont know if it would put air in all lines but it has air in all lines, when i crack a line one at a time and turn over engine air still comes out around the injector line or at least bubbles come out so I assume that is air isnt it? Like I said I dont think I have a problem with compression as it started and ran for 10 min. or so, I wouldnt think that is a problem what do you think??I still think it is to do with air in system but we have to admit we are closer than we were a couple weeks ago thanks to all the help on here to get me in the right direction and finally get it started. Let me know what ya think on this as I will be going to the Kubota shop tomorrow to see what they say about the injectors. As far as glow plug indicator there is not one on but I have new glow plugs and there is electric to them when I turn switch counterclockwise like book says to, so I will try and start it with using glow plugs.

Dennis

 

[gemini5362]

gemini The tractor has been blead to the injectors. I agree that it may be hard on some diesels but some come with provisions to use ether. I have worked 40 years in a diesel shop. We delt with lot of engines that have been setting dead for a long time and the only way to get them started was to use ether. Some of these engines it took over 24 hours strate to get started.

I am sure not going to argue with a person that makes a living fixing diesels. Like I said earlier I am not a diesel mechanic just an expert at running out of diesel. My massey was getting old and harder to start but it would start and run fine with ether or would start without if it was warmer than 80 degrees outside. I ran out of diesel and used either to start it like you are talking about I got a bit carried away and used to much it started but only ran on two cylinders. It had almost no power and would not start unless you used ether on it for several minutes. I also had blow by coming out of my dipstick. So I traded it in for a new tractor and told the salesman what I had done.