Is evil or good really there?

Hank · Sep 13, 2002

I agree with what you're saying but I don't

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree, though I don't think we're too far apart.

I concur that labeling it works against us.

cowboydoc · Sep 13, 2002

The less sophisiticated individual will see harming others in the pursuit of their own self interests as justifiable and necessary.

The more sophisticated individual will comprehend that one gets more and further by working with accepted processes in the group.

You have got to be kidding me with this analogy! I have seen some of the most ruthless people I have ever known that were your so called sophisticated. College educated, good families, etc. I have also seen people from the complete wrong side of the tracks who were the kindest, gentlest, honest, hardworking individuals who didn't even know how to spell sophistication. To me what you said is a slap in the face to all people. A persons level of sophistication has nothing to do with how good or evil they are. Only difference is we call it white collar crime instead of the simple thieves, murderers, etc. that they are.

Chuck52 · Sep 13, 2002

Doc,

I think Harv is using "sophisticated" in another sense. That is, the "sophisticated" individuals to whom he refers either intelligently or instinctively understand the inter-personal relationships involved. "Sophisticated" is another of those terms whose meanings have mutated and taken on varying shadings. I, for one, would prefer not to be called sophisticated in the sense in which it is often applied, though the term has non-pegorative meanings as well. I could draw a parallel between my definition of "liberal" and the way the term is often used in this forum, for instance.

Chuck

cowboydoc · Sep 13, 2002

Even so Chuck you can raise a child in the best of circumstances and they still turn out bad. Or you can have one raised in the worst of circumstances and they turn out good. Personally I'll take the good and evil and believe 100% in God and Jesus Christ as my saviour.

Chuck52 · Sep 13, 2002

OK by me Doc. I guess though, that I see what you call evil more like a rabid dog. Either way, it has to be kept from hurting others, by whatever means is required.

Chuck

wroughtn_harv · Sep 13, 2002

Wow doc, I'm sorry.

To me what you said is a slap in the face to all people. A persons level of sophistication has nothing to do with how good or evil they are. Only difference is we call it white collar crime instead of the simple thieves, murderers, etc. that they are.

Main Entry: so·phis·ti·ca·tion
Pronunciation: s&-"fis-t&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 a : the use of sophistry : sophistic reasoning b : SOPHISM, QUIBBLE
2 : the process of making impure or weak : ADULTERATION
3 : the process or result of becoming cultured, knowledgeable, or disillusioned; especially : CULTIVATION, URBANITY
4 : the process or result of becoming more complex, developed, or subtle

Definition number four was the one in my mind. I guess you were dancing with number three.

It's been my observation that formal education or personal success doesn't mean that an individual really has all their oars in the water or even a pond sometimes.

When I'm referring to sophisitication I'm referring to the difference between say a stingy two year old who doesn't understand about sharing like say a four year old might.

The reason we have ethics and morals as a species is for the same reason fish have gills. They work in our environment. Learning that being ethical and moral is advantageous is not something that comes easy sometimes. Like the two year old we want. And like the two year old we want it now. But if we're lucky we grow and we learn that we can have if we save and work for it.

That lesson isn't about good and evil. It's about maturing as a person, becoming sophisticated in living I think I'd say.

After all I'm sure you'd agree that a thief isn't evil. A thief is stupid. We can say the same thing for one that robs. We could even say the same thing about those who kill.

TerryinMD · Sep 13, 2002

WH,

Now wait a minute.... I have to disagree with your last analogy about thieves, robbers, and killers.

As long as a person does something to hurt an individual, be it thief, robbery, or to extreme, killing, it is wrong and for the most part evil. What if the thief steals a family heirloom and it is lost forever. That can be very devasting to a family. In my mind, that is evil in it's simpliest form. A minor crime to be sure, but it still has an effect on someone.

From <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.dictionary.com>Dictionary.Com</A>

e·vil Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

adv. Archaic
In an evil manner.

Using the first dictionary definition, any of the types of crimes committed is defined as evil.

Bag the philosophy.... Evil be as evil do. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Terry

karmakanic · Sep 13, 2002

Good evening Harvey,

As usual you've got quite a thread going here.

I suspect Terry is right. You're a philosopher at heart who just prefers fence building as a medium of exchange. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

So,,,the question is: does good or evil exist as a separate enity, outside of perspective?

Hmmm,,,well, let me ask the old half way thru a case of beer question: If a tree falls in the forest and there's no living thing to hear it, does it make a sound?

I guess your answer to both questions would be no. And I wouldn't argue one way or the other. But the way I see it, both questions have no real answer and beg the real issue. Here's my take on the subject.

The fact of the matter is, evil or goodness may not exist outside of our perspective, but we know both when we see them. Just like we know a harsh sound is different then a soothing sound, a beautiful sight is different then a ugly sight . It's true, they all require a perspective. But unlike the bunny and the bobcat, for us humans it's a shared perspective.

We can't really define any of these qualities exactly, and they may even change over time (usually do),,, but we agree enough to be able to share them, everyone understands what we're talking about when we describe them, and we have similar reactions when we experience them.

Now, you use the example of the two year old and the four year old to describe how we teach our young'uns that shared perspective. And in that shared perspective there's ways of living your life that we call good. If everyone would just share those good ways of behaving, we would all live in perfect harmony. Ok, so far, so good.

But, here's the real question. Why don't some of us get it?
Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahlmer both grew up in splendor compared to any yardstick of privledge you measure the experience of the majority of mankind. They had 15 or so years of socialization in the most advanced society on earth, after 2000+ plus years of civilized development. Why didn't they learn the shared perspective of the rest of us? And if they did learn, what force was strong enough to make them override their learning and act the way they did? Was it the failure to learn or the force that overrode the learning that we should define as evil. And how do we go about reducing which ever one is the problem?

These are the questions for which I want to know the answer.

Dave

karmakanic · Sep 14, 2002

thief, robber, killer,,,
all degrees of evil,,,in order of magnitude
same as the penal code classifies them
thief takes property only, doesn't interact with humans
robber takes property from another human
killer takes the ultimate property, our life.

Dave

BWa · Sep 14, 2002

No only perspective ... if two or more people agree now you have defined good or evil , but a person by themself , can not define good or evil for there is no outside force to define any action or nonaction ..........

Bill G.