Is evil or good really there?

TerryinMD · Sep 15, 2002

Harv,

Stop making yourself a victim.... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

One of my real frustrations is my inability to speak clearly. If I had one wish after the hot car and neat truck and quick bike and instant weight loss and kewl property with the me built house and the kids all being healthy wealthy and happy, I'd want to be able to communicate effectively.

Your "long-winded" discussions are very well written and thought out. Please take credit for what you've said. Very articulate and commuicated well. That is why I tossed a dart in my first post at your being a closet philosopher./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I've done some back reading betweent the threads that triggered this discussion and, [censored], it's some good discussion. I need to go back and review them again. This is one of the first "heated" discussions that I've seen on TBN that has been civil and enlightening. No name calling. Nothing getting down to the personal level. Just plain ol' sitting by the campfire pondering the mysteries of life and talking about a lot, but not really solving anything. Three people - three opinions. Ten people - ten opinions. As long as its on a level playing field and no one get hurt, it's a wonderful way of exchanging thoughs, opinions, and, from me, brain farts!! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

I'm trying to think on how far this post could go. However, I think that most of the major points have been raised and, to be honest, the points are valid - depending on your point of view. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif So, maybe we've taken the discussion as far as we can.... unless someone else has another viewpoint which can be discussed.

Terry

Trev · Sep 18, 2002

Is there this thing called "evil" and is it a force in nature? And is it, evil, balanced out by this other force of nature called "good"?

Look at ******.. initiated into "occult" knowledge long before he was ever known to the world. I'm inclined to think that yes, there are truly evil forces at work in the world. A good book for an interesting look at evil is "Beware the Night" by Ralph Sarchie. He's a cop, very solid, no BS, kind of guy.

I think people might enjoy this book. He has a nice, no nonsense way of writing. For example, one day they were working in a house, and when they came out the group of satanists who lived in the building were waiting for them. Ralph said something to the effect of "I'm a cop, I carry a gun, I have three black belts, and I don't turn the other cheek! Someone slaps me in the face, they're gonna end up in the E.R. They saw this attitude just in the way I walked, and they didn't mess with us." (loose quote)

Good book!

wroughtn_harv · Sep 19, 2002

And why would you call them "weak" as a group? I don't think they are weak as a group;

Good question Mark. We can blame that glitch on my lack of ability to communicate.

I'm not referring to African Americans as weak individually or as a group even though I guess I said so or didn't say otherwise clearly. What I wanted to get across is they are weaker socially and economically when compared to the rest of our society. They don't have the strong family unit ratio as most other ethnic groups in our society do. And they surely don't have the economic clout of some groups.

I will be the first to say I don't believe these factors are of their own making. Yup, I'm saying they're victims.

But the point that I think needs to be made that we need to learn from what's happening to them as a group and understand that it's a precursor to what's going to happen to the other ethnic groups in our society.

We have actually agreed on this subject of parents modeling good behavior for their kids, before. So who decides what is to be modeled, and how do we dare to infer what is right and wrong to a young mind, if we do not recognoize some plumb line, some guide, some absolute?

Man now that would be a wonderful thread unto itself.

Of course the question would have to be about the plumb line. Do we treat the immature mind like it's really stupid and give it absolutes, the ultimate zero tolerance btw? Or do we start them off with discussion? And I don't mean, "this hurts you more than it does me" or "I'm hitting you cause I love you."

And while I'd like to take credit for the Ten Commandments, Harv, I feel the need to point out that they are God's, not mine.

They might not be yours but they're someone's! Probably someone like John Ashcrofts./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Isn't he the one that proclaimed that questioning him and his was tantamount to treason?

If you stop and think about it for a minute you will see the ten commandments are all about control. The sorta control an immature parent wants to have over a child.

While I'm at it and on this topic have you ever noticed that "good" in behavior is genetic? It has to be. "Good" kids invariably have "good" parents. You can see it in the grocery store everyday. You look at some heathern child running around like a young beast invariably chasing after it will be something you'd shoot your kid for bringing home for anything more than a free meal./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Didja explain the concept of electron flow to your little bundles when they tried to stick a fork in the outlet, and then let them "find their own way", or "grow into their own persona"? I think I know the answer. Did you simplify things because you did not respect the little ones? Because you were lazy? Neither does God, in my understanding.

I guess God could learn something from us today then. I don't know about your house we've decided prevention and protection goes a lot further than telling stories about the boogey man.

We have guards for the electrical outlets. Interesting concept don't you think? Think God might have made it a little easier on mankind with such a concept?

knucklehead · Sep 20, 2002

Round n' round we go, eh, Harv? I thought you weren't going to answer this.

Yeah, I agree we can learn from "micro" versions of society. I just think we pick and choose which ones to observe based on our pre-concieved notions. Why not take a peek at other cultural groups who have more recently come "ashore" and marvel at their progress? At the risk of combining a couple separate threads, here, what about the persecution and (and genocide) against the Israelite? Do they act like victims? Is their society falling apart? I disagree that outside influences dictate behavior - it may be a huge influence, even causing failure among some, but it is the free will of the individual that pervades, if recognized, encouraged, and motivated. I got into this discussion by invoking the names of Mr Jackson and Mr. Sharpton - it is precisely their DE-motivation that I dislike, and sought to point out in answering your earlier contention that the African community is a predictor of our future.

Ah, the old environment vs genetics issue - I think it's both; I think I covered that above, with respect to the Israelites, our African brothers, and the honorable/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif Jackson and Sharpton. Depends on where you focus - some are affected more strongly by one than another. Proverbs does say that bad company corrupts morals - so I guess that's one for the environment side. And another reason to tar & feather Jack/Sharp.

We ain't going nowhere, I guess, my friend, on scriptural issues. It comes down to accepting or rejecting the Bible as the word of God, and giving it the appropriate authority. I find some accept just about everything else they believe without nearly the skepticism they give the Bible. I wonder about why that is.

Prevention and protection - thanks for illustrating my point! That little plastic outlet guard is a form of commandment, ain't it? And using simple words like "hurt" or "hot", when our little poochies can understand illustrates how we simplify things for the hearer - just like God. Your earlier point was to infer that we might have evolved past the need for "commandments", as well as slightly chafing, if I might assume, against some authority that would dain to tell you what to do. I'm as rebellious as any person, but I recognize I am not God. My ongoing observation is that we seem to find reasons that the commandments are elegantly stated truths that continue to have validity, especially as we evolve and learn more of the cause n' effect, psychological, physiological, or otherwise, that define them.

Like I said - round n' round we go!

MikePA · Sep 20, 2002

From my post on the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.countrybynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=feedback&Number=894&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1>Off-Topic, Gone?</A> thread on CBN...

This is because OT posts tend to generate point-counterpoint posts, with everyone wanting to get in the last word. Or thinking that "Just one more post will convince them I am right and they are wrong." BTW, I have yet to see anyone have their mind changed because of information exchanged on a chat site.

knucklehead · Sep 20, 2002

I just read that entire thread, Mike. The thing that convinced me was the statements that it grows and consumes the board, and it draws us away from participating in other forums. I'm guilty! I agree that this is a great place to beat around ideas; if there is so much interest, could you provide a place for the discussion? I think we all feel pretty safe here, just regular people talking about things - I'm not sure I'd be comfortable on PhilosphybyNet! Aren't these boards all about generating traffic?

Mike, are you going to post this on all similar long-running threads? Or start a new post? Sounds like you guys are getting ready to take action - are you?

W-Harv, I'm gonna search TBN on blacksmithing, then post about building a forge under either Build it Yourself, or Off Topic. I welcome PM if you wish to continue, and I think you deserve a last post on this and perhaps a couple other threads, as I have just finished responding, and don't want to steal the last word.

Other than that, due to the apparent wishes of our gracious hosts, Ta-Ta!

MikePA · Sep 20, 2002

Mike, are you going to post this on all similar long-running threads? Or start a new post? Sounds like you guys are getting ready to take action - are you?

Hi, Mark. Nope, no plans to post this message on any other threads. I had not read any of the long running threads here, but happened to look at this one to see how things were going. My post on CBN was strictly my own opinion and not that of CBN, TBN, Muhammad or any of the other moderators. Since the purpose of OTJFF is more a philosophical one, i.e., does it promote or hinder the overall purpose of the web site, a decision to take action rests with Muhammad.

knucklehead · Sep 20, 2002

I guess I misunderstood. You have shared your ideas with me about such things in the past.

Don't I learn good? /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

wroughtn_harv · Sep 20, 2002

Evening Mike,

I'd like to offer a different perspective on discussions as the one we're involved in here.

First and foremost, those not interested will not even click on the thread. If you were to look at my version of TBN you would see about half the topics I've never opened up. The different brands of tractors are of no interest to me. But the first group with all of it's subjects are where I start and then work down to here.

I doubt if I'm unique. I think here as in life we all pick and choose. So unless there's a problem with bandwidth I don't see how there is a problem when we understand that only those interested in the topic at hand are gonna view.

To complain about this thread when the participants are adhering to the concepts of being polite and respectful would be like a blue complaining about what the orange guys are saying about orange.

I think if you go back and look at my responses and posts here you will get the impression that I'm responding less to those in the discussion with contrary views from mine. And more to those who are reasding without responding for one reason or another.

I know that Mark or PitBull, members I like and appreciate, are not going to change their perspective on the issue because of what I post here. But, and this is important to me, our discussion will give viewers food for thought. They will see the issue from both sides and they might make a decision different from what they would have if they had only read my side or just the other side.

These discussions are the perfect example of where and what a free market is and can be. When a subject is of no common interest it dies on the vine. We only to have to look at the number of views to see if there's interest, good or bad.

I suggest that as long as the participants are polite and respectful to each other and the subject matter isn't offensive there isn't an issue about whether it's appropriate or not.

knucklehead · Sep 21, 2002

I think I jumped the gun on the issue of restricing this OT&JFF forum, and Mike clarified it.

I echo Harv's sentiments regarding online "space" and individual fellowship. Some of us "don't get out, much", especially when we're in the middle of our work schedule, or have something going at home that needs doing before bad weather. Most of the time, it's both. I find access to others here to be refreshing, and conversations of a higher quality than generally found elsewhere. Harv n' I may tussle over whether that's an indication of tractor power or Something Else, but we'll take your opinion, and keep it in mind as we continue.

And I still value your advice, Mike, which I obviously didn't follow. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif Maybe from now on......