Is evil or good really there?

wroughtn_harv · Sep 14, 2002

I think you just proved my point Terry. Your description is from the perspective of the victim.

On the other hand the predator put at risk long term gain for short term gain. Which is an act of immaturity or unsophisitication, right?

TerryinMD · Sep 14, 2002

Au contraire....

It is a perspective of society. The perpetrator of the crime KNOWS that they have done wrong. It has nothing to do with immaturity or unsophistication. They committed the offense for some kind of gain - short or long term in my view. In the case of killing, the gain may be of an emotional nature which brings in other aspects - jealousy, hate, etc. In some cases, it may be financial - contract killing, insurance, inheritance, etc. None of this matters in looking at what has happened. Someone did something wrong in societies view and it is what we call evil.

There are people in this world that only live for themselves and they do not care about anyone else. Their world is the only world that matters - they are selfish and will take what they think is theirs. Again, they know it is wrong. However, they have their own way of justifying their actions to suit their needs. Explain that in the terms of immaturity or unsophistication. The acts they commit are typically thought out and executed in such a way as to be successfull (not usually the case, thank goodness!!). There is maturity in the act of thinking out the act and a sophistication in the act of execution.

This is getting to be fun!! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Terry

PitbullMidwest · Sep 14, 2002

I think you just proved my point Terry. Your description is from the perspective of the victim

Of course my system isn't perfect. It's just simple. If there's a victim then chances are there's a wrong." quoted from your posting on the "How does one decide right vs. wrong?" thread <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin/compact/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=off&Number=193269&Search=true&Forum=off&Words=wroughtn_harv&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Old=allposts&Main=192853>Here</A>

TerryinMD · Sep 14, 2002

???? I didn't post on the thread mentioned.

My perspective is a societal perspective. Okay, all things being equal - a victim and "the evil doer" have their own perspectives on the meaning of the act. But in reality, society has deemed that the "evil doer" is in the wrong. This is consistent in all cultural societies. There may be differences in what is right and wrong, say canibalism for instance. In most societies, this is breaking with the norm. In others, it is perfectly normal. So, does that mean that it is wrong. It depends upon your point of view. There are other examples. However, the important thing is to understand the societal point of view.

In general, most societies treat thieves, robbers, killers, rapists, and most other evil doers the same way - with disgust and an appropriate punishment. I will leave the punishment alone. That is a totally different subject. And, in each society, people understand what is right and what is wrong. A certain percentage of the population will become evil-doers and think that they are in the right. The majority will live a life as best they can and treat their neighbors with respect and honor. And sadly, treat the evil doers the same way until they are one of the victims..... /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Terry

knucklehead · Sep 15, 2002

He was answering harv with the red stuff, Terry.

wroughtn_harv · Sep 15, 2002

Morning Terry,

 There are people in this world that only live for themselves and they do not care about anyone else. Their world is the only world that matters - they are selfish and will take what they think is theirs. Again, they know it is wrong. However, they have their own way of justifying their actions to suit their needs. Explain that in the terms of immaturity or unsophistication. The acts they commit are typically thought out and executed in such a way as to be successfull (not usually the case, thank goodness!!). There is maturity in the act of thinking out the act and a sophistication in the act of execution.

This is getting to be fun!! 

Yes it is, isn't it?

There are people in this world that only live for themselves and they do not care about anyone else. Their world is the only world that matters

This is true of everyone. Even the most caring and giving person is doing so for selfish reasons. You can look at someone who seems to just do and do for others and if you look carefully you will always see that they do it for either the acclamation, praise, or gratification, satisfaction, that comes with giving.

What is interesting is you can look at what society calls bad behavior versus good behavior. You can see where they're only examples of technique in achieving the same goal.

The bad behavior is usually shortsighted and aimed at immediate results. While good behavior is more long range oriented with a wider scope of achievment.

This is true whether it's something as simple as bad parenting versus good parenting. Or if it's something as heinous as murder.

A good example of what I'm talking about would be this discussion of good and evil.

Look at the responses.

The sharp statements of a person's position that don't offer room for discussion are a great example of shortsighted immature actions. They do get the immediate gratification of taking a position. But they lose the opportunity to become involved emotionally and intellectually with the other participants.

Those that are willing to discuss the issue and leave room for compromise get to have personal growth not only on a intellectual level. But with the give and take of discussion they get to grow emotionally.

One of the hazards of discussion that we seem to inately understand is that our hammering them down means there's a chance we're gonna end up with some of them all over us.

I suspect that's why discussion is discouraged by many. They understand, well, it's like I describe relationships in general. We always start off with either a square peg and a round hole or the round peg and the square hole. They never fit really. But over time they do. And what is interesting is that relationship becomes unique because the peg is no longer so round or square and neither is the hole but they are a perfect fit.

There is also the intriguing observation that once one goes through one successful relationship with another human being the relationships with others becomes easier. It could be the hole or peg is less round or square and therefore conforms to the new relationship sooner with less wear and tear.

You can verify this observation about relationships by looking about you at your acquaintenances. Those who have close friendships usually have many such friendships. Those who have just one or two are few. It seems to have many you have to get through one first./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I wander, bad habit I know. I find the subject so interesting. No excuse, just pure t character flaw.

However, they have their own way of justifying their actions to suit their needs. Explain that in the terms of immaturity or unsophistication. The acts they commit are typically thought out and executed in such a way as to be successfull (not usually the case, thank goodness!!). There is maturity in the act of thinking out the act and a sophistication in the act of execution.

One of my real frustrations is my inability to speak clearly. If I had one wish after the hot car and neat truck and quick bike and instant weight loss and kewl property with the me built house and the kids all being healthy wealthy and happy, I'd want to be able to communicate effectively.

The individuals you're describing are cunning like a fox. They are not smart. They are not sophisiticated about life. And they don't have the maturity to understand the difference between gain and success.

You can read about Jesus. Study eastern philosophy. Learn about Mohammed. And if you look at the real message from all these sources you can see that the key to getting is giving.

That's it. Simple message behind it all. The subjugation of the individual is the key to personal success. Religion does this by expressing that one is not the end all. There is a higher power. That one has to be subjective to a god or gods.

Once one accepts that then the religion gives one the lessons about life.

I guess it's sorta like breaking a pony to use for giving kids rides. First you have to train the pony to allow a rider. After you accept that you aren't the end all and there is a higher power then you can accept the lesson of life, giving to get.

Of course what's interesting about the give to get concept is give to get what? If you think about it for a minute or two look around and try to figure out what it is that everyone's wanting.

I see it as value. We all want to be of value. And there is one currency we use to judge value as a person. Respect.

The big glitch with respect is it can only be given. And the ultimate in sophisitication and maturity is accepting that fact.

Once one accepts that respect can only be given and one starts doing so this amazing thing happens. One finds that it comes back.

knucklehead · Sep 15, 2002

Overall, very well written Harv! I appreciate most of the sentiments, as they are quite familiar - and very old wisdom /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif. Especially the giving part. Looking outside one's self is very important. I don't think, rationalize as they may, the evil elements of society do look very far beyond their selves.

In the giving and getting vein, take the whole class of "victims" we are cultivating, with the help of every other organization out there. Victims, real or imagined, need to get though the process and get back to contribuing to society - that and only that will make them feel stronger and better. Jesse J and Al S would have to get jobs if they couldn't successfully keep many people in the bondage of victimhood.

I do think there exist absolutes, and those who believe so don't fit neatly into the growth and compromise and relationship building you describe. Oops! I hope that doesn't mean only relativists are capable of growth and relationships, and others aren't.

Booo Hoo Hoo, I ain't kewl. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

wroughtn_harv · Sep 15, 2002

In the giving and getting vein, take the whole class of "victims" we are cultivating, with the help of every other organization out there. Victims, real or imagined, need to get though the process and get back to contribuing to society - that and only that will make them feel stronger and better. Jesse J and Al S would have to get jobs if they couldn't successfully keep many people in the bondage of victimhood.

I've got an interesting observation for you Mark. It isn't all mine. I've done the usuall thing and took a little from here and some from there and put together my position which I'm absolutely postive someone much smarter has already done if I'd only looked a little further.

The weakest part of a society is the first to suffer when there's stress put upon the society. I think we can accept that African Americans as a group have reflected this stress and it's affects. We see the rates of substance abuse of all kinds and the destruction of the family unit there.

But it appears they're only thirty years ahead of the next group to succumb to that stress, poor whites.

The good thing about this is we can see where the African American community is recovering. They have the fastest growing rates as a group in socioeconomic growth and they are also showing leadership in the rate of successful marriages.

The real thing to fear I see is the group in failure mode right now is a much larger group physically in numbers with a lot more political clout. We might be wanting to get the days back when our problem was a small black population instead of a large white population with the same mentality we used to think was racial in orientation.

I have a weird position on raising children. It's from my own personal background of course.

I see us doing it all wrong right now.

As I look back I recall the lessons that were so memorable to me were learned by observation. One in particular that I use often as an example is overhearing some aunts discuss a lady with a bad reputation. Their disdain for that individual marked me for life. I have spent a lifetime trying to avoid having someone talk about me that way.

Contrary to what is popular today I believe the number one role for an adult is to live a good life. If they are doing that they don't have the time to entertain children.

This frees children from carrying the torch of being the center of the universe. This allows them to grow through the phases of being a child. It instills the needed message that one isn't the end all and the world isn't there for them and their wishes and desires.

Now I understand that all the parents today were deprived as children. And that they want to make sure their kids don't have to go through such pain and misery.

But I do have to worry about how these kids who are being catered to night and day on every level are going to cope with adulthood and responsibility to society.

I do think there exist absolutes, and those who believe so don't fit neatly into the growth and compromise and relationship building you describe. Oops! I hope that doesn't mean only relativists are capable of growth and relationships, and others aren't.

Mark look carefully at your absolutes. I'd like you to consider why they're absolutes.

Is there any chance that your absolutes are there because relativism on those subjects would be complicated?

Look at your Ten Commandments. They're nice and simple, right? Is there any chance that their simplicity was because it would be too much to explain the reasons for each commandment to where anyone could understand it?

Nah, of course not. That would infer laziness or lack of respect for the intelligence of those the commandments were intended for./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

PitbullMidwest · Sep 15, 2002

Sorry Terry, I was trying to point out to Harv that he seems to contadict himself, his name was accidentally deleted when I edited the post.

knucklehead · Sep 15, 2002

The weakest part of a society is the first to suffer when there's stress put upon the society. I think we can accept that African Americans as a group have reflected this stress and it's affects.

I can't accept that - not by a long shot!. I see Americans in America, where a hard working person can excel - any person. I would have to squint up reaaaally tight to see that point of view, since we have a great number of Americans of African heritage who have prospered though far greater challenges than other whites. Also Koreans, Cubans, Vietnamese, etc., etc., who have started with far less a time horizon than some of our more established groups. Harv, I see people, not races, not income classes, not ages, not sex. Oh, sure, I've been steeped in the culture of numbering and grouping just as anyone, but I've been taught (by my parents) to take everyone at face value and not make judgements.

And why would you call them "weak" as a group? I don't think they are weak as a group; only the weak ones fail - as do weak willed and victim-oriented people of any group. It is also the grouping and numbering of an increasing array of separate groups that weakens this country, pulls us apart, and why I refuse to put their group-name of choice in front of the word American. As TDR said, "There are no hyphenated Americans". Of course, if the groups and the unique group problems went away, so would the need for expanding government programs, and a whole pile of bureaucrats, intellectuals, and politicians would need to find work. How come you guys who tout this junk are so quick to shout "follow the money" when it comes to other things, but not this?

Their disdain for that individual marked me for life. I have spent a lifetime trying to avoid having someone talk about me that way.

Too bad it was disdain for an individual and not a separation of the sin from the sinner. That's what I am teaching, and trying to model. However imperfectly gained, though, it sounds like you've got your own absolute there, Harv. What do ya s'pose you'd be thinking if they had decided she couldn't help herself because of her socioeconomic, racial, or sexual place in society? Or perhaps they had decided they shouldn't judge? Or she should be free to express herself? Right vs wrong, and it shaped your behavior, whether by guilt or by example.

We have actually agreed on this subject of parents modeling good behavior for their kids, before. So who decides what is to be modeled, and how do we dare to infer what is right and wrong to a young mind, if we do not recognoize some plumb line, some guide, some absolute?

Is there any chance that your absolutes are there because relativism on those subjects would be complicated?

Actually there is a chance that relativism on most of my absolutes would kill me, one way or another, eventually. And while I'd like to take credit for the Ten Commandments, Harv, I feel the need to point out that they are God's, not mine. I find it interesting, and always present in conversations such as this, that Godly truth is relagated to human creation. I'm always answering that, and have just recently done so on one of these deep discussions we have going here. I understand the need or temptation to shoulder God aside, because it's easier to fight a big dumb human Marky than consider that we are flipping God the old bird and ignoring his word.

Is there any chance that their simplicity was because it would be too much to explain the reasons for each commandment to where anyone could understand it?

Preach it, Brother Harv! I do believe that some laws were given in simplicity because of a lack of human understanding - the throwing away of cracked pots, and some of the cooking laws can be explained by our current knowledge of bacteria and so forth. That actually helps me believe the bible was inspired by a greater intelligence. Especially when you find things like the earth being called a sphere way before anyone could have had any way to figure that out.

When you get to the understanding of why we shouldn't murder, or commit adultery, and find that it's O.K. if we understand everything around it, let me know - I could have some fun with both of those! Not to mention stealing, lying, and the rest of them. Just clue me in when you get to a place where that can be understood - I'm sure the good folks at Tyco, Enron, etc. who have no retirement or jobs would also like to understand how some of those commandments can be violated without hurting anyone, too.

Didja explain the concept of electron flow to your little bundles when they tried to stick a fork in the outlet, and then let them "find their own way", or "grow into their own persona"? I think I know the answer. Did you simplify things because you did not respect the little ones? Because you were lazy? Neither does God, in my understanding.

Let's keep this intellectually honest - we're thrashing about in the murk of cloudy reasoning here.