Its ugly... might be a boat anchor... but

[dem45133]

I have a 2004 Deutz F 4M 2011 that swallowed a valve. No I didn't do it... I bought it this way knowingly, basically at scrap price on the hopes I might be able to rebuild it. The engine is complete except cooling. Oil Cooled BTW. When I pulled the head this is what I found:

1) piston is totally disintegrated and gone!... Just the rod end with the wrist pin slapping side to side in its bore. Beat the crap out of the liner. The piston pieces are in the pan. I told you it was ugly!

2) upper portion of bore (sleeve?) is broke outwards in four directions, but center area seems still to be intact. Didn't hurt the bores next to it, but came up next to them.

3) Head is beat bad, but not cracked... maybe will clean up and accept a new seat.

4) Rest of the bores look very good... small amount of ridge... but not bad at all. Those bores will clean up.

5) uncertain why it why it would break the valve stem just at the base of the keepers... the main stem is still in the guide, the valve head itself is gone. Any reasons you can think of? I can only of one... over revving and valve float due to a bad governor, or a broken natural gas line. Rest of valve train look good. Haven't checked the cam or bottom end yet.

So here's the $64,000 question... is that upper bore solely the liner and the base block that holds it in the lower part of the cylinder? i.e the upper part of the sleeve is "wet". If so, than maybe only the liner was killed? Not the entire block. I have not been able to find an exploded view that shows me.

Thank you for your thoughts. Dave

 

[tmajor]

Not familiar, at all. Googled the engine and came up with a new one for $4500.

I don't even know, if it's gas or diesel. The old Harley engines used to have the valve stems seize fast to the guides, after they got rid of the leaded gas. The solution was bronze guides.

 

[dem45133]

Humm, I guess my age is showing... the "$64,000 question" is from an old game show of the same name back in the late 50s or early 60s. I guess it was crooked too from what my wife says... big scandel back then.

New ones run from 4500 to 7300 or so depending. Not in my budget. If possible I intend to only refresh the other three cylinders and repair this one... and run it. Not a real rebuild.

Tmajor... these are small industrial diesels. 3.1 l I think.

Dave

 

[slowzuki]

Did the valve break at the notch for the keeper? How many hours on the motor? May just have been a faulty component.

 

[dem45133]

If it works I attached two pictures.

The more I look at it... its either not lined or the whole upper end is the liner. Grain in the metal at the cracks is consistent the full thickness. I have a manual coming that should tell me more about how the liner is designed.

Think that head is repairable?... I can mill off the high spots... but when a new injector is installed it shows it protruding about an 1/8" further than it used to around the injector's bore (or whats left of it). Is it possible to fill weld and re-machine and have it stable in a diesel's combustion chamber?

What would you do (with minimal budget)? Thanks, Dave

 

[dem45133]

Oh, slowsuki... it did break at the base of the keepers, but then the valve head is broke off too. No idea of the hours or the history. Bought it as "parts or rebuild" off ebay on the chance I might be able to do something with it. Its is complete with all the fuel management system, starter, and alternator, oil cooling pump etc. I can tell you the other three cylinders have only a small amount of ridge... and the engine is very clean inside. I believe the bottom end is fine... and will take standard bearings... judging from the upper end. Will see when I get it on a stand and pull it the rest of the way apart and start mic-ing.

Dave

 

[cowski]

the 2 liners on each side of the bad one seem to have flat spots on them .will the head gasket seal off on them?i have never built a deutz.i wish you could post a picture of the valve train.the valve could of just broke. it sometimes happens.if the head isn't cracked and it will hold a valve ,i would use it.i would have the rod and crank checked for straightness .

 

[somguyss]

I hope there wasn't good money paid for this the tractor may be worth something but the block and head are for sure worth scrap metal and thats about it. I would either look at trying to find a used or reman engine. I personally don't see the light at the end of the tunnel for this engine at all. I have been rebuilding Perkins and Detriot Diesels and Cummins and Iveco engines as well as many others for 20 years now and I can tell you that I wouldn't even let you leave either at my shop, I couldn't and wouldnt be able to salvage the block or head some of the other rotating componets may still be ok and can be sold on forum boards or ebay so maybe get some money back. I would look at a complete replacment.

 

[dem45133]

Cost more in fuel to go the 320 mile round trip to pick it up, than it did for the engine. I can part out if I have to. I have no warranty to worry about... it will be for my use on the place... so if I can make it run for a few bucks than I am ahead.

 

[dem45133]

the 2 liners on each side of the bad one seem to have flat spots on them .will the head gasket seal off on them? .

Thanks, The others appear to be just fine... must be something about the photo. No issue with head gasket.

Heck for what I'm in it for, I may turn my own liner (or modify one), clean up the head... hold back on the injector depth (asuming it still seals)... throw it back together and see what happens. Might run for years... might run 15 minutes. But I haven't given up yet.

Actually, although this is a tractor site (of which I have four)... I bought this as a possible power source for a 33 year old $800 27 ft sailboat. Its 4 times the power it needs for hull speed... but since the boat weights 6500 lbs.. I want the extra available for maneuvering in tight places... like the slip when the wind is wrong. It takes a lot to stop 6500 lbs on water. the little 12 hp outboard almost let me hit the dock. Also owners of 100K boats hate us being near them with an $800 boat that may or may not stop. I'd also like to cruise at hull speed at about 1400 rpm... just a hair above idle... not screaming along like the 12 hp 2 stroke outboard it currently is, or the 2400 rpm for the Volvo Penta 2 cylinder 13 hp the inboard version of the same boat came with (I have one of these from a hurricane salvage boat of the same model as mine, but haven't installed it yet). I also want to V-drive it to keep the cabin open. Its only about 250 lbs heavier than the 13 hp volvo penta... believe it or not... but this puts the weight more aft so I may even incorporate some hydro planes which are foam filled for floating the extra weight level at sailing speeds, and yet add a little lift for adding a couple more knots above hull speed maybe, but this engine will almost never be at 100% power and full rpm again for very long, just short stints to stop or get going.

Yea, I'm a horse of a different color... I'll modify more or less anything... and make it better... or at least closer to what I want something to do. For instance I just bought a heavy shafted rudder and gearbox from a small work boat.. that gives me the basis for a new more authoritative rudder down under the hull instead of sorta hung on the stern with a tiller. Nope, can't let me think about anything... I'll redesign and rebuild it or something. Done so for years.

Dave