Its ugly... might be a boat anchor... but

[dem45133]

I have a 2004 Deutz F 4M 2011 that swallowed a valve. No I didn't do it... I bought it this way knowingly, basically at scrap price on the hopes I might be able to rebuild it. The engine is complete except cooling. Oil Cooled BTW. When I pulled the head this is what I found:

1) piston is totally disintegrated and gone!... Just the rod end with the wrist pin slapping side to side in its bore. Beat the crap out of the liner. The piston pieces are in the pan. I told you it was ugly!

2) upper portion of bore (sleeve?) is broke outwards in four directions, but center area seems still to be intact. Didn't hurt the bores next to it, but came up next to them.

3) Head is beat bad, but not cracked... maybe will clean up and accept a new seat.

4) Rest of the bores look very good... small amount of ridge... but not bad at all. Those bores will clean up.

5) uncertain why it why it would break the valve stem just at the base of the keepers... the main stem is still in the guide, the valve head itself is gone. Any reasons you can think of? I can only of one... over revving and valve float due to a bad governor, or a broken natural gas line. Rest of valve train look good. Haven't checked the cam or bottom end yet.

So here's the $64,000 question... is that upper bore solely the liner and the base block that holds it in the lower part of the cylinder? i.e the upper part of the sleeve is "wet". If so, than maybe only the liner was killed? Not the entire block. I have not been able to find an exploded view that shows me.

Thank you for your thoughts. Dave

 

[tmajor]

Not familiar, at all. Googled the engine and came up with a new one for $4500.

I don't even know, if it's gas or diesel. The old Harley engines used to have the valve stems seize fast to the guides, after they got rid of the leaded gas. The solution was bronze guides.

 

[dem45133]

Humm, I guess my age is showing... the "$64,000 question" is from an old game show of the same name back in the late 50s or early 60s. I guess it was crooked too from what my wife says... big scandel back then.

New ones run from 4500 to 7300 or so depending. Not in my budget. If possible I intend to only refresh the other three cylinders and repair this one... and run it. Not a real rebuild.

Tmajor... these are small industrial diesels. 3.1 l I think.

Dave

 

[slowzuki]

Did the valve break at the notch for the keeper? How many hours on the motor? May just have been a faulty component.

 

[dem45133]

If it works I attached two pictures.

The more I look at it... its either not lined or the whole upper end is the liner. Grain in the metal at the cracks is consistent the full thickness. I have a manual coming that should tell me more about how the liner is designed.

Think that head is repairable?... I can mill off the high spots... but when a new injector is installed it shows it protruding about an 1/8" further than it used to around the injector's bore (or whats left of it). Is it possible to fill weld and re-machine and have it stable in a diesel's combustion chamber?

What would you do (with minimal budget)? Thanks, Dave

 

[dem45133]

Oh, slowsuki... it did break at the base of the keepers, but then the valve head is broke off too. No idea of the hours or the history. Bought it as "parts or rebuild" off ebay on the chance I might be able to do something with it. Its is complete with all the fuel management system, starter, and alternator, oil cooling pump etc. I can tell you the other three cylinders have only a small amount of ridge... and the engine is very clean inside. I believe the bottom end is fine... and will take standard bearings... judging from the upper end. Will see when I get it on a stand and pull it the rest of the way apart and start mic-ing.

Dave

 

[cowski]

the 2 liners on each side of the bad one seem to have flat spots on them .will the head gasket seal off on them?i have never built a deutz.i wish you could post a picture of the valve train.the valve could of just broke. it sometimes happens.if the head isn't cracked and it will hold a valve ,i would use it.i would have the rod and crank checked for straightness .

 

[somguyss]

I hope there wasn't good money paid for this the tractor may be worth something but the block and head are for sure worth scrap metal and thats about it. I would either look at trying to find a used or reman engine. I personally don't see the light at the end of the tunnel for this engine at all. I have been rebuilding Perkins and Detriot Diesels and Cummins and Iveco engines as well as many others for 20 years now and I can tell you that I wouldn't even let you leave either at my shop, I couldn't and wouldnt be able to salvage the block or head some of the other rotating componets may still be ok and can be sold on forum boards or ebay so maybe get some money back. I would look at a complete replacment.

 

[dem45133]

Cost more in fuel to go the 320 mile round trip to pick it up, than it did for the engine. I can part out if I have to. I have no warranty to worry about... it will be for my use on the place... so if I can make it run for a few bucks than I am ahead.

 

[dem45133]

the 2 liners on each side of the bad one seem to have flat spots on them .will the head gasket seal off on them? .

Thanks, The others appear to be just fine... must be something about the photo. No issue with head gasket.

Heck for what I'm in it for, I may turn my own liner (or modify one), clean up the head... hold back on the injector depth (asuming it still seals)... throw it back together and see what happens. Might run for years... might run 15 minutes. But I haven't given up yet.

Actually, although this is a tractor site (of which I have four)... I bought this as a possible power source for a 33 year old $800 27 ft sailboat. Its 4 times the power it needs for hull speed... but since the boat weights 6500 lbs.. I want the extra available for maneuvering in tight places... like the slip when the wind is wrong. It takes a lot to stop 6500 lbs on water. the little 12 hp outboard almost let me hit the dock. Also owners of 100K boats hate us being near them with an $800 boat that may or may not stop. I'd also like to cruise at hull speed at about 1400 rpm... just a hair above idle... not screaming along like the 12 hp 2 stroke outboard it currently is, or the 2400 rpm for the Volvo Penta 2 cylinder 13 hp the inboard version of the same boat came with (I have one of these from a hurricane salvage boat of the same model as mine, but haven't installed it yet). I also want to V-drive it to keep the cabin open. Its only about 250 lbs heavier than the 13 hp volvo penta... believe it or not... but this puts the weight more aft so I may even incorporate some hydro planes which are foam filled for floating the extra weight level at sailing speeds, and yet add a little lift for adding a couple more knots above hull speed maybe, but this engine will almost never be at 100% power and full rpm again for very long, just short stints to stop or get going.

Yea, I'm a horse of a different color... I'll modify more or less anything... and make it better... or at least closer to what I want something to do. For instance I just bought a heavy shafted rudder and gearbox from a small work boat.. that gives me the basis for a new more authoritative rudder down under the hull instead of sorta hung on the stern with a tiller. Nope, can't let me think about anything... I'll redesign and rebuild it or something. Done so for years.

Dave

 

[bjr]

I'm not reading as to "why" new parts are not a option? Surely there's either OEM or Aftermarket parts? bjr

 

[dem45133]

I'm not reading as to "why" new parts are not a option? Surely there's either OEM or Aftermarket parts? bjr

OK... its getting a little confusing for people to follow:

Here's the jist... 1) Block casting may or may not be usable... I can't tell if the liner in it (if it has one) has the block casting all the way to the top. If the block casting itself comes all the way up... then its bad... and simply getting a new liner will not do it. unless I custom design one... if it can be held by the base of the cylinder, or if the liner is held by the base of the cyclinder... maybe it can be repaired.

2) head casting may or may not be usable.... likely not if it was for normal duty or something someone had to stand behind and warranty.

I was hoping some one knew how the liner and block was designed. I do not yet have a shop manual (its coming)... I bought the engine on the potential to be rebuilt... Its ugly... but the jury is still out.

I will be using new parts to repair if the block and head can be salvaged. But to buy both and a full rebuild kit, or a short block and a head, would get a bit pricey for my more or less non-existent budget (by some standards). Sure an industrial unit that's costing a $100k a day in down time warrents a 7k new engine immediately... for a boat conversion to inboard, that's still in the idea stage only, its a "see what we can do with it". I'm in it for an entire $75, plus a tank of fuel.

Dave

 

[dem45133]

couple more pictures... strange to pull the head and look straight down into the pan isn't it? Never saw one loose its piston totally before. Seen them beat up... but still attached to the rod.

Since what I assume to be the throttle is locked in one position (see picture) that looks to be a fairly wide open position too maybe????, I'd say it had likely been on a gen set or other continuous high rpm application. Probably running unattended. High rpms and unattended... not a good combination, as you can see. The other three cylinders continued to do their thing... until someone heard it or saw the smoke and came running to shut it down I suspect. Must have made a **** of a nasty racket!

 

[ThomasH]

Regardless of how the block was designed (wet or dry liner), a wet liner can be installed, and it is typically only supported at the top and bottom. I had one done about 2 years ago and it was $100.

It's not unusual for valves to break, and drop down in the cylinder, and instant destruction of the cylinder.

 

[deereman75]

You might be able to run it on only 3 cyl, I have seen a ford model t engine cut in half to be used for a marine engine. This was done in the depression, to save fuel. They cut the whole block in half with a hacksaw (not a powered one), and converted it to a 2 cyl. What you could probably do is run it without the piston and connecting rod in the bad cyl, and remove that injector. It wont run as smooth as it should, but it should work.

 

[crazyal]

You might be able to run it on only 3 cyl, I have seen a ford model t engine cut in half to be used for a marine engine. This was done in the depression, to save fuel. They cut the whole block in half with a hacksaw (not a powered one), and converted it to a 2 cyl. What you could probably do is run it without the piston and connecting rod in the bad cyl, and remove that injector. It wont run as smooth as it should, but it should work.

You would also have to repair the liner so antifreeze wouldn't leak out. But it would be an interesting idea.

 

[magicheater]

Thanks, The others appear to be just fine... must be something about the photo. No issue with head gasket.

Heck for what I'm in it for, I may turn my own liner (or modify one), clean up the head... hold back on the injector depth (asuming it still seals)... throw it back together and see what happens. Might run for years... might run 15 minutes. But I haven't given up yet.

Actually, although this is a tractor site (of which I have four)... I bought this as a possible power source for a 33 year old $800 27 ft sailboat. Its 4 times the power it needs for hull speed... but since the boat weights 6500 lbs.. I want the extra available for maneuvering in tight places... like the slip when the wind is wrong. It takes a lot to stop 6500 lbs on water. the little 12 hp outboard almost let me hit the dock. Also owners of 100K boats hate us being near them with an $800 boat that may or may not stop. I'd also like to cruise at hull speed at about 1400 rpm... just a hair above idle... not screaming along like the 12 hp 2 stroke outboard it currently is, or the 2400 rpm for the Volvo Penta 2 cylinder 13 hp the inboard version of the same boat came with (I have one of these from a hurricane salvage boat of the same model as mine, but haven't installed it yet). I also want to V-drive it to keep the cabin open. Its only about 250 lbs heavier than the 13 hp volvo penta... believe it or not... but this puts the weight more aft so I may even incorporate some hydro planes which are foam filled for floating the extra weight level at sailing speeds, and yet add a little lift for adding a couple more knots above hull speed maybe, but this engine will almost never be at 100% power and full rpm again for very long, just short stints to stop or get going.

Yea, I'm a horse of a different color... I'll modify more or less anything... and make it better... or at least closer to what I want something to do. For instance I just bought a heavy shafted rudder and gearbox from a small work boat.. that gives me the basis for a new more authoritative rudder down under the hull instead of sorta hung on the stern with a tiller. Nope, can't let me think about anything... I'll redesign and rebuild it or something. Done so for years.

Dave

I like the way you think Dave, I'm an old Mine Sweep sailor (MSO 429) and spent a fair amount of time around the fish piers in Boston and was stationed in Kittery, ME, right across the Piscatauqua River from Portsmouth, NH. I can remember the fishing boats running the recyled 455 V-8's and screaming as they went by. The Piscatauqua has a reputation for some fierce tidal action. I like what you are doing, and thinking! :thumbsup:

 

[dem45133]

You might be able to run it on only 3 cyl, I have seen a ford model t engine cut in half to be used for a marine engine. This was done in the depression, to save fuel. They cut the whole block in half with a hacksaw (not a powered one), and converted it to a 2 cyl. What you could probably do is run it without the piston and connecting rod in the bad cyl, and remove that injector. It wont run as smooth as it should, but it should work.

Thought about that too... but to be smooth it would have to be two cylinders... but then that would now be down to the 19 or 20 hp range and sorta defeating my purpose. Running three would have better power... but that lope you'd feel through the entire hull. Remember... marine loads are constant work... Nope, I'll get some kind of cylinder back in it. Even if I had to go to a couple mm smaller diameter on the bore to keep a strong enough wall on non cast... I'd still get 95 or so % of design out of that bore.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

If it has sleeves the block is a easy fix.Look at cyl from the bottom.This is usually the easy way to toll if it has sleeves. The bottom of the sleeve is machined and where the bottom of the sleeve meets the block there will be a line around the cyl.If the liner goes through the casting look on the out side of the bottom of the cyl for machine marks. You will be able to tell where the sleeve meets the casting. I would let a machine shop look at the head. They can magnaflux it and find cracks that you cannot see.
Bill

 

[dem45133]

I like the way you think Dave, I'm ..... I like what you are doing, and thinking! :thumbsup:

Central WI... I have stomping grounds up by Eagle River (Family...parents and grandparents buried there) as well as over in St Croix County. I do miss western Wisconsin and real winter. They only have perpetual fall here... but they do not know it. Locals complain all the time over 14 snow flakes and 30 degrees. They have no concept of 30 below and 3 feet of snow. I just chuckle.

If you like this.... you'd really like another concept I've wondered about. I have a general aviation interest I've never been able to feed. But I've really wondered about the idea of using Deutz's individual air cooled cylinder-head diesel design and incorporating around a common crank pin radial... like the Pratt and Whitney's just smaller in the 200 hp class. Getting it strong AND Light is a constant battle in aviation.