Jerky project cylinder action

[J_J]

I am assuming the two spool valve is used for the motors. It depends on the lever position as to how much fluid is going to the motors.

The fluid not gong to the motors is passing through the first valve and flows from the PB port to the cyl valve.

So the available fluid for the ram/cyl is the left over fluid not used by the motors.

If the hyd motors are not using the fluid, then the full pump flow is going to the cyl valve.

If you then move the lever to operate the ram, it will move very fast and then the relief will try and relieve. It may not be able to relieve 16 GPM flow, and the engine will start to complain.

When you move the lever a little, some fluid is going to a work port and works the cyl at some pressure based on resistance or load. The rest of the flow is passing on through the valve to tank.

I think if you split or divide the flow, you can manage the motors and the cyl flow.

For instance, if the pump flow were to go into a FIXED FLOW PRIORITY DIVIDER WITH PRIORITY PRESSURE RELIEF with a 3/30 split as posted above, the cyl circuit would always get 3 GPM, and the hyd motors would get the remainder of the pump flow.

Assuming a 16 GPM flow.

3 GPM goes to cyl valve.

13 GPM goes to the hyd motors.

The OUT ports from both valves are teed together and goes to tank.

You could then remove the PB adapter and plug the PB port.

If you have a 16 GPM pump at 1500 psi, it will take about 16 HP to do the job.

If that pump is a 1.8 cu in displacement, and turning at 3600 rpm, then it can pump about 28 GPM.

Some things are not adding up.

 

[yarg]

JJ
I am following your info pretty well.
The stall situation you relate is what I had come to understand:
All excess flow has to go through the relief valve and in a shock thus stalling the engine which is under powered but still enough for the drilling and hoist needs.
The ram needs almost no flow but gets the full flow though the power beyond fitting.
Is there proportioning valve designed for splitting the flow as you speak of?
My estimated fix is just an idea to date.

 

[wdchyd]

Yes correct, I have not had great sucess with counterbalance valves. A lot of chattering when cold. The adjustable flow control has been the best for me in this case. We also build a "fuse" wich is just a orfice to control cyls in case of a line failure. CJ

velocity fuse..??

Do work for a manufacturer or distributor..?? or a custom thing

 

[J_J]

yarg: You said

All excess flow has to go through the relief valve and in a shock thus stalling the engine which is under powered but still enough for the drilling and hoist needs.


No, not exactly.

No matter what the flow in GPM, the lever only lets fluid in to the work ports based on lever lposition.

Say you had a 10 GPM flow, and you wanted to move the cyl slow.

The lever moves the spool so fluid is flowing to the work port, a small amount, say about 3 GPM of fluid flows in to the cyl and the cyl starts to move. When the 3 GPM has extended the cyl, the 3 GPM flow begins to be relieved, and goes to tank, and the rest of the pump flow is passed through the valve, not the relief.

A condition when all pump fluid try's to flow through the relief valve is in a deadhead situation where the fluid has no path to tank except the relief valve. If the relief valve can not handle the flow, the engine may stall or something may burst, be it a hose, valve , fitting.

Are the hyd motors running part time, or full time?

When do you use the ram? In conjunction with a motor running, or both motors running.

Do you have to hold the lever to run the motors? Do you use full lever to run the motors.

If they are running full time, then there is probably not enough fluid for the ram The used fluid from the hyd motors will flow through the OUT port of the two spool valve to tank.

 

[J_J]

yarg,

Can you give us an operating scenario in drilling , from start to finish.

Such as

setup rig

connect water

load pipe stem with drill head using ram

start water

start hyd motor to turn drill

start down pressure

etc

 

[yarg]

JJ,
Here are the answers to you questions:
Normal use the motors are not used during ram use therefore all the flow goes to the ram spool.
There is between 10 and 15 gpm of flow at engine speed while not drilling.
The ram takes at most .3 gal to fill so in reality the ram spool has to divert nearly all the rest to the relief valve then on to the return line.
I have to hold the levers to run the motors for safety purposes.
The motors only run when spool valves pulled.

From what I have determined to this point:
I have to fill the ram at an altra slow pace to eliminate the speed and thus jerky motion.
When filling the ram, 99.9% of the fluid has to go through the releif valve which has a pre assure setting that is so hi that it stalls the engine.
Possible solution is the meter the cram flow with a needle valve and get a lower pressuer relief cartridge into the spool valve in hopes that the lower pressuer will not stall the engine?
Gray

 

[yarg]

Set unit

Start engine and raise mast using ram.

Lift head up to drill pipe mounting height using hoist motor.

Install drill pipe.

Begin ti drill using drill motor and slowly use hoist motor to lower drill head, both motors on occasion may be used.

When drill pipe is at it's end use, using drill motor and hoist motor, repeat the sequence until well is drilled.

After exctarcting the drill pipe , lower mast with ram.

That is about it?

 

[J_J]

Using the ram, if you only apply a little lever, most of the pump flow is going directly to tank.

If you keep applying fluid to the ram cyl, when the cyl is full, the small amount of flow is now forced through the relief valve.

All pump flow does NOT go through the relief valve. Just the flow the cyl can not use after it is full.

Pressure is only developed when the ram is working a load, and may not develop very much pressure.

A pressure gage will keep you informed.

 

[yarg]

JJ,
You found me looking for input on the project posts.
Yes, I ask many questions of many to discover things.
I ran out of gas last night while trying the two options for ram flow. One, the very careful levering of the valve keeping the bulk of the flow bypassing the relief and two running the motor while doing the ram thereby bypassing most of the fluid.
I will try today?
It is five miles away so it is not like just stepping out to try.
Thanks for hanging in this with me.

 

[yarg]

JJ,
Bad weather stopped my test plan but I checked the pump and motor specs.
Pump: max psi 2300 at max gpm of 24 at 3600 rpm. Rated 16 gpm at 2200 rpm.
Motors: max psi 1550 and 23 gpm at 181 rpm. Continuous is 1450 psi and 16 gpm at 150 rpm.
The engine ISVs bit under powered like about 25% but good for one motor at a time for full output?
Gray

 

[yarg]

JJ,
I finally got to the shop with gas and time to test the motor on and ram valve at the same time actuation.

With the head motor on Diverting the vast majority of oil thru the motor, I triggered the ram valve and it moved perfect. So dropping the pressure and slowing the ram fill will do the trick.
This is heat I hope the low pressure relief valve and needle control valve does for me?
In my reading I also saw a priority flow control valve and need to ask you this, does the bypass flow of this valve have a pressure to overcome or is it free flow without back pressure? A valve of this sort would reduce flow and pressure though tyw ram valve.

 

[bigdeano]

Good news. Personally I would put an adjustable priority flow control valve on it. Then you can adjust the speed right where you want it. Brand Hydraulics makes a good one. I have one on my tractor to adjust the speed of the loader and 3 ph. They have no back pressure on the excess flow port. You can many times find new ones cheap on ebay.

 

[yarg]

Bigdeano,

You answered my question on that sort of valve. I did not know if the bypass was free flow or pressurized br a relief of some sort. I also thought that a valve like that would be the least stressful on my pump motor combination as there would be free flow fir the bulk of my oil even when spooking the ram. I may still do this if the low pressure relief catradge and needle valve do not control things properly.

I was happy to find that the ram could work right with a con tolled flow rate and pressure))) very happy.
Gray

 

[yarg]

JJ,
I finally got to the shop with gas and time to test the motor on and ram valve at the same time actuation.

With the head motor on Diverting the vast majority of oil thru the motor, I triggered the ram valve and it moved perfect. So dropping the pressure and slowing the ram fill will do the trick.
This is heat I hope the low pressure relief valve and needle control valve does for me?
In my reading I also saw a priority flow control valve and need to ask you this, does the bypass flow of this valve have a pressure to overcome or is it free flow without back pressure? A valve of this sort would reduce flow and pressure though tyw ram valve.

I have attached a few piics that may allow you to better understand the machine?

 

[J_J]

JJ,
I finally got to the shop with gas and time to test the motor on and ram valve at the same time actuation.

With the head motor on Diverting the vast majority of oil thru the motor, I triggered the ram valve and it moved perfect. So dropping the pressure and slowing the ram fill will do the trick.
This is heat I hope the low pressure relief valve and needle control valve does for me?
In my reading I also saw a priority flow control valve and need to ask you this, does the bypass flow of this valve have a pressure to overcome or is it free flow without back pressure? A valve of this sort would reduce flow and pressure though tyw ram valve.

You did not drop the pressure. It is developed.

Of course the ram should work reasonably well, as the hyd motors are using most of the fluid.

You might be thinking of the priority flow divider I posted that will provide a small priority GPM for the ram. The remainder of the pump flow will be using the excess flow through the flow divider. It also has a relief.

Again, the hyd component , be it a hyd motor or cyl, develops the pressure. It only develops max pressure when fully loaded, weight wise or motor torque utilized. You might never see max pressure unless you stall the hyd motors or hold the cyl lever to max.

A hyd gage in the hyd system will show what is going on.

For a complete system test, a flow meter, pressure gage, relief valve, and needle valve is required.

 

[bigdeano]

Thanks for the pictures. That's quite a project. It looks very nicely done. Are you going into the well drilling business.

Here's the catalog page so you can see just what I'm talking about. There are of course other brands of the same thing.

http://www.brand-hyd.com/fc/catalog.pdf

 

[yarg]

Yes, you mentioned a valve like that and I saw in a previous post that there is free flow through the open side of the valve but you mentioned that it is Pressurrized?
Which is it? I also thought it was pressurized from some earlier reading and that would make it no better than the flow going through a reduced pressure relief valve which I can put in my current spool valve with a low pressure cartridge. So rather than have a second valve to mount I thought I would just change out the current relief portion of my current spool valve.
In any case, as soon as the new parts show up, I will try my fix and report back on the outcome.
BTW--- I have a pressure gauge in the unit but it is where I need another person to read it
I also have looked up and found a 26 HP direct trade out two cylinder engine that some day I may replace the 21 hp size if I need to upgrade for power. I would rather do an engine upgrade than a pump downgrade if there are issues and needs.

Ho. and the rig is designed to slide onto and lock on most any 2000 GVW+ trailer and also can fit into an 8 ft. truck box if needed. I have three trailers and he has one so this way, we can move it anywhere either of us at any time. He can even take it into the woods with his four wheeler and rough terrain trailer I haul the drill water in on a second trailer?

 

[yarg]

A friend and I have need for four wells ( about 300 ft.) and many more if it works good? At 50 to 60 $ per foot around here, this means after about 130 ft. it is all paid for
We put 5000 all in for it with everything including mud pump, bit and pipe. No, I am not going to be a well driller---I am retired as a building trades and electronics teacher, building on the side with a contractors license for 30 years and for the past five years, I have been the superintendent of schools part time. No time for fun)) The build of this rig was my fun! Took me 5 weeks after school and some weekend days. Love to build things out of wood and metal. It is my therapy? Stress relief until something does not work
Thanks for the compliment, hope it works as well as it looks?

 

[bigdeano]

The pump will have to develop enough pressure to raise the ram, no more. The excess flow goes out the excess flow port and to the tank without any additional restriction.

Since you already have a relief valve in your system, you can buy the model without a relief valve.

 

[J_J]

yarg, bigdeano

I want to ask three questions.

If I raise a ram with no load, how much pressure does it take to fully extend the cyl.

When I get to full extend of the cyl stroke, and keep holding the lever how much pressure will show on a gage.

What is the purpose of the relief valve?