Jinma 454LE starting problems - NEED HELP PLEASE

[ejtaylor822]

I think my starter has gone bad on my Jinma 454 LE. Looking for confirmation, other tips and any help on replacing a starter – if needed. Have never replaced a starter…

Over the past few months I have noticed that on occasion when I turn the key, I would hear a “click” each time the key was turned to “start”. After anywhere from about 1 to 10 on/off sequences, she would always fire right up. A week or so ago, I went to start her up and was getting the “click”, but this time the engine would turn over once, maybe twice, then I would start getting a series of rapid clicks from the solenoid as long as the key was in start. I could try to restart, get a click and then nothing, or, engine would turn over a couple of times followed by rapid clicking of the solenoid. When the engine would turn over it was real slow and kind of “chugging”. After about 3 or 4 of the slow turn overs and a dozen on/off sequences, she fired up just fine. However, now she will not start at all and I am losing valuable therapy, I mean seat, time. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have been on TBN searching for “starter” and “starting” issues and problems. The battery and alternator appear to be fine. When she started (the last time) the voltage meter was staying neutral and all the lights, flashers and horn work. I tried the trick someone recommended about when starting turn on the lights to see if they go out indicating battery problems. The lights dim slightly but never go out.

I have visually inspected all connections on the battery, solenoid, starter and ignition switch. They appear to fine and tightened. I have also checked the ground to the frame from the battery and that appears to be fine and all lights work as well. All fuses are fine – have blown my 30 AMP once before and had to replace – have verified it’s alright.

One thing I have not done is to try jumping the starter to test if it truly is the starter. Have never done this before and it makes me a little nervous. I have read and understand that – make sure the tractor is neutral – and jump the post from the ignition return to the post with the ignition send with the positive battery feed. I have attached a picture of the starter and solenoid. The large pinkish/red wire is the positive feed from the battery that I have tucked the excess behind the frame.

I am going to talk to the dealer this morning and see what he has to say. I emailed him a while back when I started getting the “clicks” and he said it was probably the starter. I have read where the Jinma/Chineese starters are not the best in the world.

Any advice on other checks that I can perform? Should I try jumping the starter and if so what is the proper way to go about this? If I do have to replace the starter, any tips or advice on this or is it just unbolt the old one and put the new one in place?

As always, ANY advice, comments, tips, tricks, encouragement is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Eddie

 

[bluechip]

Bad connections can give the same symptoms. This is not limited to the primary wires from battery to starter and ground but also in the starter circuit (small wires) from starter/battery connection to ignition switch, fuse boxes, clutch safety switch and back to the starter.

 

[KevinW]

After making sure tractor is in neutral, turn the switch on and jump from battery + to the lower connection/bolt shown in your picture.

Simple starter circuit:

If it spins over good, then it could be the relay or a grounding issue.

 

[Boltonpower]

Hi
The first thing that comes to mind is are you using the
compression release to start the tractor? The 3105 is a big
engine and the starter, at least with the factory battery will
have trouble turning it over, particularily when hot. The rapid
clicking is a sign of insufficient current or more precisely an
internal impedence in the battery that 's too high for 12V to
do the work necessary to start that engine. Try operating the
compression release, then spinning up the motor and letting it
go. I bet she'll start right up. Much easier on the starter too..

Regards
Graham

 

[RonMar]

Eddie
It sounds like a bad connection as bluechip mentioned but that bad connection can also be the contacts in the solenoid. Please forgive me if this is too basic but I don't know your experience level. Using your pic as a reference, the green body is the starter motor, the smaller gold colored part with the wires attached is the solenoid which is a high current relay or switch. The 2 larger terminals on the solenoid are the high current contacts and the smaller terminal with the red wire is the solenoid coil. The large pink wire is main + 12VDC from the battery and the white wire connects the battery power on into the rest of the electrical system and allows alternator current to reach the battery and charge it while running. The negative side of the circuit travels thru the frame, block and starter housing. When you turn the key, +12V flows up the pink wire, thru the white wire, thru the fuse panel, thru the clutch safety switch and thru the ignition switch starter contacts and back down that red wire to the small solenoid contact. That energizes the solenoid coil and pulls a piece of metal inside with a magnetic field which forces a large block or disc of copper against the back side of those large contacts which feeds +12 from the pink wire to the motor.

Ok now that that is out of the way, from your description of the lights not going out when you try to crank it over, the battery may be allright. I described a fair ammount of circuitry above and it would be good to eliminate as much of that as possible. The easiest way to do this is to momentarilly connect +12V to the small contact with the red wire on the solenoid. This is what the rest of the starter circuit does and by doing this it takes the rest of the start circuit and wiring out of the picture.

Please make sure the tractor is in neutral. This type troubleshooting has crushed and killed people when the tractor started in gear. I personally render the engine incapable of running for this type testing(compression release open, governor/fuel shutdown cable pulled all the way out and held there with a pair of vise grips clamped around the pull handle shaft).

IF the tractor cranks reliably when you feed +12 to the small solenoid terminal(red wire), then the starter and battery are OK and the problem lies in the rest of the starter circuit. If it doesn't crank reliably then the starter or battery is at fault. Are you sure the battery is OK? quickest way to eliminate this is with a known good one. Take the tractor battery out and use it to start your car/truck as a test. Use your car/truck battery in the tractor for this test.

If the test is bad with a known good battery(and you are sure ALL the large electrical connections are good then the starter is at fault. Pretty easy changeout, remove the positive terminal from the battery for safety and remove the pink, red and white wires. Starter motor is held in place with 2 bolts. New one goes in the same way and wire it as per your excellent picture.

Any questions about any of this, just ask.

 

[bluechip]

Good point Graham, While we have not found it necessary to use Compresssion Release on the smaller engines, except in cold weather, the bigger engines could really use the help. The Chinese starters are not high tech gear reduction units, prolonged cranking on an engine that is stubborn to start can cook the windings and ruin the starter. excessive "bumping" to find timing locations, etc can cook the solenoid coil. Use of compression release will prolong the life of the starter for sure.

 

[bluechip]

Hey kevin,
When you "jump" the starter, you need to go from the small lead to the one with the battery cable. If you go to the bottom one, the starter will turn, but the bendix will not be engaged. great idea adding the photo of the starter. I should work up a library of helpful photos to have on hand when I post. Picture is still worth at least 896 words after inflation.

 

[ejtaylor822]

YOU GUYS ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chip, Kevin, Graham & Ron,
I appreciate the help and advice – what a resource this site and you guys are! Thanks again.

Here is what I have done so far. This morning I tried jumping the starter – my first time. With the tractor in neutral and the key in “ST”/start, I used battery jump cables and used the clamp/jaws on one end and clamped across the top post – with the red/pinkish wire - to the bottom post going to the starter. Had some sparks but the engine did not turn over. The starter would “WWHHIIIIRRRRRRR” spin up but the engine would not turn over. Seems like I do remember one time when I came in contact with the smaller post with the red lead and the engine did turn over. But, I thought I was doing something wrong and immediately removed and avoided contacting the small post. I tried jumping across the large posts several times all with the same results. Just to be sure I C-clamped the clutch safety switch and tried jumping. All I would get was the starter whirring (sp? – word??) up and then spinning back down.

As bluechip said though, if the bendix gear is not engaging the engine will not start ( good description of the Bendix gear and starter can be found at this link ). As mentioned earlier, I do remember one time when I came in contact with the smaller post with the red lead and the engine turned over. But, I thought I was doing something wrong and avoided contacting the small post for the rest of my jumps. When I go home this evening I will give it another shot jumping across the top post to the smaller post and see what happens.

Graham, I am not starting with the compression released. I will try this evening. However, based upon what you and others have said, in the future, I want to start with the compression released to save the starter and solenoid.

Ron, your explanation was not too basic – thanks for the time to explain. I can EASILY see how this could really hurt/kill someone quickly. It’s amazing how quickly so much power can be generated.

The dealer, the last time we talked, truly believes it’s the starter. He has a 454LE at home and had the same exact thing happen to him. He swapped out the starter and all was well. I believe him and eventually think we will see it’s the starter after all, but, I really want to be sure before I buy and swap out parts. I have been living with the “clicking” stuff for a couple of months now and it would kill me to get a new starter, swap it out, hop on and turn the key and still have the “clicks”. So, that’s why I want to troubleshoot this thing really good and be sure.

Once again thanks ALL!

Eddie

 

[KevinW]

Thanks for the education. I was thinking of an old bendix stater that was "spring" loaded or slung out and engaged the fly wheel when power was applied to the starter. (ie. Dad's Farmall Super A). I didn't know that it was a solenoid that kicked the starter bendix out to engage the flywheel???

Thanks again,

 

[greg_g]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I want to start with the compression released to save the starter and solenoid. )</font>

Another contribution by the compression release is to establish some oil pressure before the actual combustion starts. With my compression release engaged - regardless of ambient temperature - I watch the oil pressure gauge while the starter is spinning. When the needle jumps off the red, I let go of the compression release. Now the engine is running with the oil pressure already spooled up.

//greg//