Jinma 454LE starting problems - NEED HELP PLEASE

ejtaylor822 · Sep 26, 2005

I think my starter has gone bad on my Jinma 454 LE. Looking for confirmation, other tips and any help on replacing a starter – if needed. Have never replaced a starter…

Over the past few months I have noticed that on occasion when I turn the key, I would hear a “click” each time the key was turned to “start”. After anywhere from about 1 to 10 on/off sequences, she would always fire right up. A week or so ago, I went to start her up and was getting the “click”, but this time the engine would turn over once, maybe twice, then I would start getting a series of rapid clicks from the solenoid as long as the key was in start. I could try to restart, get a click and then nothing, or, engine would turn over a couple of times followed by rapid clicking of the solenoid. When the engine would turn over it was real slow and kind of “chugging”. After about 3 or 4 of the slow turn overs and a dozen on/off sequences, she fired up just fine. However, now she will not start at all and I am losing valuable therapy, I mean seat, time. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have been on TBN searching for “starter” and “starting” issues and problems. The battery and alternator appear to be fine. When she started (the last time) the voltage meter was staying neutral and all the lights, flashers and horn work. I tried the trick someone recommended about when starting turn on the lights to see if they go out indicating battery problems. The lights dim slightly but never go out.

I have visually inspected all connections on the battery, solenoid, starter and ignition switch. They appear to fine and tightened. I have also checked the ground to the frame from the battery and that appears to be fine and all lights work as well. All fuses are fine – have blown my 30 AMP once before and had to replace – have verified it’s alright.

One thing I have not done is to try jumping the starter to test if it truly is the starter. Have never done this before and it makes me a little nervous. I have read and understand that – make sure the tractor is neutral – and jump the post from the ignition return to the post with the ignition send with the positive battery feed. I have attached a picture of the starter and solenoid. The large pinkish/red wire is the positive feed from the battery that I have tucked the excess behind the frame.

I am going to talk to the dealer this morning and see what he has to say. I emailed him a while back when I started getting the “clicks” and he said it was probably the starter. I have read where the Jinma/Chineese starters are not the best in the world.

Any advice on other checks that I can perform? Should I try jumping the starter and if so what is the proper way to go about this? If I do have to replace the starter, any tips or advice on this or is it just unbolt the old one and put the new one in place?

As always, ANY advice, comments, tips, tricks, encouragement is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Eddie

bluechip · Sep 26, 2005

Bad connections can give the same symptoms. This is not limited to the primary wires from battery to starter and ground but also in the starter circuit (small wires) from starter/battery connection to ignition switch, fuse boxes, clutch safety switch and back to the starter.

KevinW · Sep 26, 2005

After making sure tractor is in neutral, turn the switch on and jump from battery + to the lower connection/bolt shown in your picture.

Simple starter circuit:

If it spins over good, then it could be the relay or a grounding issue.

Boltonpower · Sep 26, 2005

Hi
The first thing that comes to mind is are you using the
compression release to start the tractor? The 3105 is a big
engine and the starter, at least with the factory battery will
have trouble turning it over, particularily when hot. The rapid
clicking is a sign of insufficient current or more precisely an
internal impedence in the battery that 's too high for 12V to
do the work necessary to start that engine. Try operating the
compression release, then spinning up the motor and letting it
go. I bet she'll start right up. Much easier on the starter too..

Regards
Graham

RonMar · Sep 26, 2005

Eddie
It sounds like a bad connection as bluechip mentioned but that bad connection can also be the contacts in the solenoid. Please forgive me if this is too basic but I don't know your experience level. Using your pic as a reference, the green body is the starter motor, the smaller gold colored part with the wires attached is the solenoid which is a high current relay or switch. The 2 larger terminals on the solenoid are the high current contacts and the smaller terminal with the red wire is the solenoid coil. The large pink wire is main + 12VDC from the battery and the white wire connects the battery power on into the rest of the electrical system and allows alternator current to reach the battery and charge it while running. The negative side of the circuit travels thru the frame, block and starter housing. When you turn the key, +12V flows up the pink wire, thru the white wire, thru the fuse panel, thru the clutch safety switch and thru the ignition switch starter contacts and back down that red wire to the small solenoid contact. That energizes the solenoid coil and pulls a piece of metal inside with a magnetic field which forces a large block or disc of copper against the back side of those large contacts which feeds +12 from the pink wire to the motor.

Ok now that that is out of the way, from your description of the lights not going out when you try to crank it over, the battery may be allright. I described a fair ammount of circuitry above and it would be good to eliminate as much of that as possible. The easiest way to do this is to momentarilly connect +12V to the small contact with the red wire on the solenoid. This is what the rest of the starter circuit does and by doing this it takes the rest of the start circuit and wiring out of the picture.

Please make sure the tractor is in neutral. This type troubleshooting has crushed and killed people when the tractor started in gear. I personally render the engine incapable of running for this type testing(compression release open, governor/fuel shutdown cable pulled all the way out and held there with a pair of vise grips clamped around the pull handle shaft).

IF the tractor cranks reliably when you feed +12 to the small solenoid terminal(red wire), then the starter and battery are OK and the problem lies in the rest of the starter circuit. If it doesn't crank reliably then the starter or battery is at fault. Are you sure the battery is OK? quickest way to eliminate this is with a known good one. Take the tractor battery out and use it to start your car/truck as a test. Use your car/truck battery in the tractor for this test.

If the test is bad with a known good battery(and you are sure ALL the large electrical connections are good

then the starter is at fault. Pretty easy changeout, remove the positive terminal from the battery for safety and remove the pink, red and white wires. Starter motor is held in place with 2 bolts. New one goes in the same way and wire it as per your excellent picture.

Any questions about any of this, just ask.

bluechip · Sep 27, 2005

Good point Graham, While we have not found it necessary to use Compresssion Release on the smaller engines, except in cold weather, the bigger engines could really use the help. The Chinese starters are not high tech gear reduction units, prolonged cranking on an engine that is stubborn to start can cook the windings and ruin the starter. excessive "bumping" to find timing locations, etc can cook the solenoid coil. Use of compression release will prolong the life of the starter for sure.

bluechip · Sep 27, 2005

Hey kevin,
When you "jump" the starter, you need to go from the small lead to the one with the battery cable. If you go to the bottom one, the starter will turn, but the bendix will not be engaged. great idea adding the photo of the starter. I should work up a library of helpful photos to have on hand when I post. Picture is still worth at least 896 words after inflation.

ejtaylor822 · Sep 27, 2005

YOU GUYS ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chip, Kevin, Graham & Ron,
I appreciate the help and advice – what a resource this site and you guys are! Thanks again.

Here is what I have done so far. This morning I tried jumping the starter – my first time. With the tractor in neutral and the key in “ST”/start, I used battery jump cables and used the clamp/jaws on one end and clamped across the top post – with the red/pinkish wire - to the bottom post going to the starter. Had some sparks but the engine did not turn over. The starter would “WWHHIIIIRRRRRRR” spin up but the engine would not turn over. Seems like I do remember one time when I came in contact with the smaller post with the red lead and the engine did turn over. But, I thought I was doing something wrong and immediately removed and avoided contacting the small post. I tried jumping across the large posts several times all with the same results. Just to be sure I C-clamped the clutch safety switch and tried jumping. All I would get was the starter whirring (sp? – word??) up and then spinning back down.

As bluechip said though, if the bendix gear is not engaging the engine will not start ( good description of the Bendix gear and starter can be found at this link ). As mentioned earlier, I do remember one time when I came in contact with the smaller post with the red lead and the engine turned over. But, I thought I was doing something wrong and avoided contacting the small post for the rest of my jumps. When I go home this evening I will give it another shot jumping across the top post to the smaller post and see what happens.

Graham, I am not starting with the compression released. I will try this evening. However, based upon what you and others have said, in the future, I want to start with the compression released to save the starter and solenoid.

Ron, your explanation was not too basic – thanks for the time to explain. I can EASILY see how this could really hurt/kill someone quickly. It’s amazing how quickly so much power can be generated.

The dealer, the last time we talked, truly believes it’s the starter. He has a 454LE at home and had the same exact thing happen to him. He swapped out the starter and all was well. I believe him and eventually think we will see it’s the starter after all, but, I really want to be sure before I buy and swap out parts. I have been living with the “clicking” stuff for a couple of months now and it would kill me to get a new starter, swap it out, hop on and turn the key and still have the “clicks”. So, that’s why I want to troubleshoot this thing really good and be sure.

Once again thanks ALL!

Eddie

KevinW · Sep 27, 2005

Thanks for the education. I was thinking of an old bendix stater that was "spring" loaded or slung out and engaged the fly wheel when power was applied to the starter. (ie. Dad's Farmall Super A). I didn't know that it was a solenoid that kicked the starter bendix out to engage the flywheel???

Thanks again,

greg_g · Sep 27, 2005

( I want to start with the compression released to save the starter and solenoid. )

Another contribution by the compression release is to establish some oil pressure before the actual combustion starts. With my compression release engaged - regardless of ambient temperature - I watch the oil pressure gauge while the starter is spinning. When the needle jumps off the red, I let go of the compression release. Now the engine is running with the oil pressure already spooled up.

//greg//

ejtaylor822 · Sep 27, 2005

This evening I came home and tried jumping across the small post and the battery post - no go. Made several attempts, but, she just would not turn over.

I then tried releasing the compression - this was an experience.....

I looked at it and determined that the compression release handle, turned. Was not pulled or pushed as there was no room for it to move forward or backward. So, I tried to turn it - no go. Twisted a little bit harder - nothing. I then took my left hand and turned the lever while pushing up on the other end with my right hand. Finally opened up but took A LOT of effort. Moved it a few times thinking it might loosen, but, still hard to move. It takes both hands to get this thing to open - can't see where that's right. You can keep it open with one hand, but, I do not see anyway in the world this thing can be opened sitting in the driver's seat.

Anyway...

I got the compression release open and tried jumping again from the small post to the battery feed. The engine was turning over as the cooling fan even started rotating, but, as soon as I released the compression handle, nothing. Sparks would fly and the engine would stop turning. The odd thing is that the engine never sounded like it was going to start. I could hear the pistons moving and the see cooling fan rotating, but, it never sounded like it "caught fire" and was going to start.

The only thing I know left to do is swap out the batteries and see what happens. However, at this point I am about ready to say it's a bad starter/soleniod and order new ones.

Anyone have any other thoughts or suggestions?

As always, thanks for the help - Eddie.

Boltonpower · Sep 27, 2005

Sparks from where? Try WD-40 on the linkage for the CR. It
shouldn't be that hard. If the saprks are coming from the posts
on the starter I'm thinking bad crimp or otherwise high resistance connection. Are the crimps soldered?? If not try soldering them..

Graham

ejtaylor822 · Sep 28, 2005

Greg, good point about using the compression release to build up oil pressure - another good reason to use. If I can get mine to working, that's the way I will always start from here on out.

Hey Graham,
I am still using the "clamp" end off some jumper cables. I lay the clamp across the two posts on the solenoid, or, spread the jaws across the posts making the connection. The sparks are coming from where I am touching the jumper clamp to the posts on the Solenoid. I do not think anything is soldered, it's all just bolted together on the posts - can see in the first picture that I posted. I will try and get some better pics in the morning and post.

Once again, I am just using plain old car battery jumper cables and using one of the clamp ends to do the jump. The remaining ends from the jumper cables are coiled up on the tire - with no ends/metal touching. Should I use something else? Remember my dad using a screwdriver - I think??

Yes, the C/R is a real booger. I think maybe it's just the mechanics of it all??? Looking down the shaft from the seat, the "lever" is at 3 o'clock and connects to a push rod. You have to rotate counter-clockwise to open. It feels like something is at a "detent" on the other end of the push rod. I'm a pretty big guy (actually just big - nothing pretty about me 'cept the wife and daughter /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) with decent strength, but, I can't budge the thing with two hands, much less one from the seat. (I'd give a $100 to any Chineese engineer that could /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.)

BTW - owe you a PM on the sailing - I am sooooooo envious. Will PM you tomorrow when I have more time - been a long day and it's WAY past my night-night time.

Boltonpower · Sep 28, 2005

Can you just hang the cables on the battery directly? Might
minimize the sparks. There is something going on with the
C/R. Try carefully inspecting the linkage. There is a torque rod
that comes out of the back of the valve cover that is connected
to a cam inside the valve cover that holds the exhaust valves open to release the compression. This rod is turned with a plate that is connected to a pull rod in your C/R linkage. I have seen these plates jambed up against the side of the valve cover because the torque rod is too far in or shims are missing. The C/R is hard to move in these cases because the plate isn't free
to move. Take a close look at the linkage and see if you can
determine why it is so stiff.

Graham

cowboy40 · Sep 28, 2005

I have a 454. Bought new in March and now have a little over 100hrs on her.She has the same starting carricteristics as you have described. I have not done anything to correct yet because mine always starts on the second or third turn of the key. But, I believe the starter is fine. I believe the problem is a connection at the selenoid,or a battery problem.And Im betting on the battery. The problem is that the selenoid is not engaging the starter. Anyway,you will problabl have yours fixed before I have time to deal with mine,but the 1st thing I am going to do is put one of those $60,yellow,800cca batteries from Walmart in her, and go from there. As far as the compression release goes, the linkage from the handle to the release, does not let you put any leverage on the release. Mine is the same way. I've studdied it and its just a design flaw in the positioning of the release handle. Its just going to be a 2 handed release. These tractors still give you more for the money than any tractor, anywhere.

greg_g · Sep 28, 2005

( Ione of those $60,yellow,800cca batteries from Walmart in her )

Not enough battery, unless you use the compression release during EVERY start. Even then, I'd expect cold weather starting problems. The OE battery is at least a 1000, and probably 1200. I recommend an Interstate type 93 with marine cable adapters. It's basically a type 45 case, with more plates inside. And it's got a nice low profile to maximize air flow through the radiator.

FWIW, the compression release on my KM454 is a two handed job as well. What it does is open the exhaust valves, and those are some pretty stout valve springs.

//greg//

ejtaylor822 · Sep 28, 2005

Hey guys, been an interesting evening.....

I came home and for grins, as many of you suggested, I wired up the battery in my explorer to the tractor and guess what - she fired right up on the first turn of the key! I know I have been saying the battery was fine, and you more experienced guys kept telling me to check it - next time I will listen!!! I just assumed since the tractor was new and I always see the voltage meter staying nuetral/charged it was fine. I've just had it in my head it was the starter ever since the clicks started when I try to start.

I also found a web page earlier that said if the solenoid is clicking and turning the starter, the solenoid is not getting enough power from the battery to join the large plates to provide the torque needed for the starter. I am now looking at this entirely different. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think, and someone chime in if I am missing something here, that my problem is now one of two issues: I have a bad battery, or, it's not getting properly charged - alternator, connection or circuit problem (as many of you have said).

The battery that is in there now is an "amarrco" or "ammacco" something like that. I did not look that close look as I have never heard of these - has anyone? I am not that familiar with batteries outside of the major brands.

Greg_g I am really leaning to your idea of getting an Interstate 93 (depending upon cost) and replace the cables with the marine cables and adapters. It doesn't get terribly cold here, but, cold enough and when it snows I want to ensure I have a battery that will turn the engine over - heck I'd settle for starting on warm days right now /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Replacing the battery is on my list. The next thing I want to do is check the connections - end to end, retighten and clean. I also want to check the alternator. Here's where I need a little help. The website I saw earlier mentioned how to do this, but, it was not tractor specific (believe it was large generators). I believe the way to do this was measure the voltage across the battery terminals while the engine was running. Believe I should see at least 13.4 volts. Does this sound right? Am is missing anything else I should look at?

Thanks again.

Eddie

tat2z1969 · Sep 28, 2005

I took a Jinma starter that was acting the same way to the guy who does my starter rebuilds. He took the solenoid apart and there is a copper bar in there that when it gets burnt it doesn't make good contact, he flipped the bar over and put it back together and it works fine.
He told me that the burning comes from trying to start the tractor with a low battery and once it burns the damage is done.
Might be your problem also.

bruce1966us · Sep 28, 2005

I think the solenoid is probably bad.

greg_g · Sep 28, 2005

( I believe the way to do this was measure the voltage across the battery terminals while the engine was running. Believe I should see at least 13.4 volts. )

The correct procedure would be to have the alternator bench tested. That way both voltage and current can be verified. But the simple test for charging voltage is as you say; with the engine off, you should see something ~12v (maybe 11.7-11.8) between the positive terminal and ground. When the engine starts, the voltage should jump to about 13.2 (12v+10% charging voltage).

Only problem with this shade tree test is that - if the battery is bad - sometimes it will not "accept" otherwise good charging voltage coming from the alternator. So if you don't see the 10% voltage increase, you still really only know that your charging system isn't working. A bench test will help narrow down to the WHY.

Seems they put batteries and cables in these tractors AFTER they're painted. I advise finding the tractor end of the battery negative cable, and get rid of all the paint between the cable lug and the frame.

//greg//