Backhoe Jinma HW04 Framemount Backhoe For Jinma 454 issues

KyleG · Nov 24, 2008

My intent is not to attempt to get help with this, I just wanted people to be aware of the issue if they are looking to purchase a Jinma Framemount backhoe for a Jinma 454 Tractor. For background reference I bought the Jinma 454 tractor August 2008 and just received the framemount backhoe and a Yuchai Dozer. I purchased through Keno Tractors and they are attempting to resolve the identified issues.

The frame mount backhoe (for the Jinma 454 tractor pictured below) is model number it's the HW04 from Jinma which is the larger framemount backhoe. We have ran into several snags that I'm working with Keno Tractors on, and unfortunately I had the backhoe crated to me, and I discovered all the issues as Keno didn't attempt to assemble and mount to a 454. (as they didn't have one.) From my understanding I'm one of the first (if not the first) to have ordered this framemount for the 454 in the United States.

First issue is Jinma strengthened the frame but gave the same length bolts for mounting backhoe to the backhoe frame, which did not go through all the way, already fixed that bought longer bolts, and lock nuts and washers and also drilled out the center whole on each of the set of 3 threaded mounts (3 on each side and 3 on the back) to make a through bolt mount. ($60 in bolts and nuts)

Second issue the PTO pump was designed for an older style 454 and could not be mounted, waiting for Jinma to send me an adaptor or new pump. See pics below first is the back of the tractor second is the PTO pump. First is 3 holes second is 4 and configuration is completely different.

Third issue, the backhoe frame mounts up by the steps and also back on the lower 3 point arm pins (if you take the 3 point arms off) but the brackets can not slip inside the backhoe frame or to the outside as the frame is the exact width where a straight plate can not fit on the inside and if it's on the outside you can't actually get the castle nut and pin on all the way. Keno is probably going to create for me some modified brackets with a 90 degree corner to make it fit. First pic is left side of tractor, where I attempted to beat the bracket in with a hammer but couldn't get it to go down even wedged, second one is the right one at the same time, and couldn't even get it to wedge.

Fourth and related fifth issue, We were provided a seat adaptor from Keno that they use on their 354 and 254's with framemount backhoes. It allows me to turn the seat of the tractor around using the spring seat. Unfrotunately it raises the seat 4 inches which is already fairly high on a 454, which makes control operation uncomfortable. The other issue is if you turn the seat around and slide the seat to the last pin towards the backhoe I'm still about 12" from reaching the backhoe controls. Keno or Jinma is going to have to figure something out on this one, likely adding a backhoe seat like you would have on a 3 point mount backhoe (although the configuration of the backhoe is different so you can't just use one from the 3 point mount hoe.) We'll see where this one ends up and I'll update the posts as we fix issues. See pics. First pic you can see the adaptor under the seat it has a pin and you can rotate the seat. Second pic is me sitting in the seat with my back against the back of the seat with the seat adjusted all the way towards the backhoe, I'm a short guy but my hands are still 12" from reaching the controls without leaning forward.

Bob Rooks · Nov 24, 2008

Kyle,
Looks like your PTO and the four-bolt hydraulic pump both have male tangs. One of them has to have a guzinta.

Affordable · Nov 24, 2008

There is a mounting plate that should connect to the 3-bolt flange and then a cross connector piece that will drive the pump, we have this set up for the 354 Tractors I'm not sure if it's the same for the 454 tractors

Tommy
Affordable tractor Sales
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

Brad_Blazer · Nov 25, 2008

Kyle,
Nice pictures and problem description. It looks like a new set of brackets for the rear attachment should fix you up. It would be great if they had 2 plates to capture the frame arms on both sides. I assume the 2 sides of the frame are welded together somewhere else? A picture of the whole thing and the forward attachment points would be helpful. If you provide a sketch and critical dimensions i.e. [diameter, length, and spacing of the pins, size and spacing of the frame arms, dimensions and locations of the slots in the arms, and slot location relative to the pins with the frame attached to the front mounting points], I'm sure Keno can have them made.

I'm working on a homebuilt frame myself and I'm curious about the overall design of yours.
What size is the backhoe? Is the frame about 2" x 4", solid steel or rectangular tubing?

Check out the seat function about 1:15 into this video of a JD 110 TLB. The seat just flips back to use the hoe. That might solve your height and reach issues. I'm sure the special symmetrical JD seat will not be cheap but it should be comfortable and durable.
YouTube - John Deere 110.mpg

KyleG · Nov 26, 2008

Brad_Blazer said:
I'm working on a homebuilt frame myself and I'm curious about the overall design of yours.
What size is the backhoe? Is the frame about 2" x 4", solid steel or rectangular tubing?

I can't get pictures very well after I bolted the backhoe frame to the backhoe and then to the tractor (and I don't want to take apart to do the pics at this point

) I'll give you some measurements and further description to help you figure out your homebuilt frame. The frame length I did not get but the front attaches by going through a bracket up by front end loader arms (see pic I circled it) using a bolt with pin (like on the front end loader arms.)

The frame is made of rectangular tubing and the front of it just is bolted as I mentioned no cross-members up front. It comes back (looks straight to me but haven't checked the frame for square) and then it hangs from the brackets (that don't fit) off the lower 3 point arm pins I pictured before. The two sides of the frame are welded together on the backend to using the same type of tubing to make it look like a rectangle on back and there is an additional cross member just at the front of where the controls/reservoir mount to, to roughtly make a square on the frame where the backhoe controls/reservoir sit.

The reason it doesn't fit is the frame is 16" at the bolt holes on the inside of the side pieces of the backhoe frame. It is 19 3/8" if you measure from outside to outside of the side frame at the bolt holes. The bracket is 3/8" thick at the lower bolt holes but it has a welded on piece to make it thicker where it slides over the 3 point lower pins. The bracket measures 1" (or 31/32") thick at the 3 point pin hole.

The case of the tractor from the beginning of one 3 point pin to the other 3 point pin is 16" (same as the frame, hence why two 3/8" thick brackets can't slide on the inside.) The lower 3 points pins are 3" in total length each and 1.5inches is threaded and 1.5 inches in not threaded. The washer that slides onto the unthreaded portion before the Castle nut is 3/16" This means it won't fit on the outside either as you can't actually screw on the Castle nut with washer all the way on the threaded portion so you can get the pin in. I currently have it hanging this way with just the Washer and Castle nut on but can't get it tightened enough to get the pin in. Meaning during operation the Castle nut could work off and the whole backhoe frame fall in the middle of operation.

And yes I have shared this information with Keno, even before I posted up here.

As to some of the other issues, I thought of the symetrical flip seats, and although they would address the height issue, they would still not bring me close enough to operate the backhoe I believe. From the video I can tell the JD Backhoe was significantly closer to the back of the tractor. I believe Jinma extended this frame in order for the outriggers to clear the larger 454 tires, but they did not do a reconfiguration that brought the controls closer to the rear of the tractor. See additional photo I did not include in the first post.

I did talk to Keno again since posting, they are working this with China, I agree the brackets are a quick fix to resolve, the seat is more of an issue as the framemount backhoe also had a different configuration of the reservoir and it does not have a mounting point for an additional seat and is not sturdy enough to make one, so they can't just make it the same as a 3 point mount backhoe with a bolted on additional seat. I believe, due to the large space between the tractor seat and the backhoe controls, the ideal solution would be to mount another seat and then remove the adaptor from the tractor seat that allows it to rotate, just won't be easy)

Hope that added a few more details to help clarify some issues

KyleG · Nov 26, 2008

Affordable said:
There is a mounting plate that should connect to the 3-bolt flange and then a cross connector piece that will drive the pump, we have this set up for the 354 Tractors I'm not sure if it's the same for the 454 tractors

Tommy
Affordable tractor Sales
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

Believe you are correct, that's what Keno thought too, having Jinma validate and then send it to me, hopefully this will be a quick fix for the PTO pump as well.

SPIKER · Nov 26, 2008

I had to grind off some of the washer/spacer that is welded onto the plate for the rear 3pt links mounts for my jw03 hoe on my JM284.

like the looks of that mach though...

mark

RonMar · Nov 27, 2008

From the pics and parts you show of the backhoe, it looks a lot like my HW-03...

If it is like he HW-03 I have, there are a couple of things to look at when you get it into operation.
1. Filler cap. Mine is vented, but the pipe that is welded intothe top of hte tank, protrudes quite a ways down into the tank. I think they did this to try and limit how much fluid you can put into the tank. With the tank filled up to where the pipe meets the fluid, as the fluid expands during use, it blocks access to the cap vent. The warming expanding air trapped in the top of the tank will force fluid up the filler neck and out the vent holes in the cap

. After several burp sessions onto the tank top and my boots, I decided that since the dipstick pipe does not go below the top skin of the tank, it would make a better vent, so I converted this pipe to my vent. I plugged the vent holes in the cap, and I visually check fluid level by removing the cap and looking down the filler neck pipe.

2. The oil return banjo fitting to the reservoir tank was restrictive, and the fluid returning from the valve re-enters the reservoir as a high velocity straight stream under your left foot when operating the backhoe. This stream shoots across the top of the fluid and strikes the top of the fluid, entraining air bubbles into the fluid in the tank. To visualize what I am talking about, try and fill a bucket from a garden hose with a high velocity straight stream nozzel. In short, you can't. the straight stream drags so much air into the bucket that the water looks like it is boiling, and all the splashing spills the water at the top out of the bucket never allowing it to fill completely.

The direction that the fluid is injected into the tank causes the fluid in the tank to flow/move clockwise as viewed from the front of your tractor. This flow with the entrained air bubbles flows right down past the strainer and outlet port to the hydraulic pump. I was wondering why my pump was so noisy, and that was the reason. I added a return line filter to my hoe, and the return port to the tank caused so much backpressure that I blew out an "O" ring at the filter cartridge. I replaced the banjo fitting at the tank return with a welded pipe elbow. This lets the fluid re-enter the tank at a much lower velocity, and solved my filter back pressure problems. The pump is also perfectly quiet now... It is like filling the above mentioned bucket with the same garden hose, without the straight stream nozzel.

3. If the hoe base is connected to the frame like mine is, with several bolts, check and tighten these regularly as they quickly work loose in operation.

You will also possibly find some annoyances with how the valve operates. Mine only has one load check valve on the system, when it should have them on each valve. This means that is nome cases, some multiple actions won't act like they they should. IE, if you command boomUP and boom swing at the same time, you will actually get boom down and boom swing, as the weight of the boom overpowers the fluid flow and it takes the path of least resistance thru the swing cylinders. you will quickly lean that boom up is a command done all by itself.

Good luck

Brad_Blazer · Dec 1, 2008

Kyle,
Thanks for the additional pics and description.

I came upon this dealer site with some HW-03 mounting tips.

Jinma Backhoe - Tractor Outlet Tractors Loaders Back Hoes Implements

It looks like the foot rests alongside the control box have some substantial support. Maybe you can make a seat support that extends back from there. The seat and controls on my used hoe (ARPS 730) are all hung off a pair of 1/2 x 2" bars. This pic shows the assembly.

The seat rotates with the boom

Here it is trying it out on the 3-point:

KyleG · Jan 12, 2009

Alright a little update for those keeping track. Keno Tractors (my dealer) asked me to fix the 3 point pin brackets, my dad welded them up for me. He took the existing 3 point (Cat 1) bracket and cut it and added a little bit of an elbow to make it clear the backhoe frame. Per one of the earlier suggestions he made an outer frame bracket as well. This will prevent the frame from sliding back and forth on the pin (although we could have used a spacer to do that) and should add some additional strength since you could probably break the 3 point pin before breaking the inner and outer bracket off the backhoe frame.

Just a note these pictures are of the the brackets before "adjustment" to get them on the tractor. We made them kinda snug so we had to ream out the 3 point pin hole on the outer (square shaped) bracket. We also cut the corners of the inner brackets so that we could put the brackets on the 3 point pin and swing them up (towards the front of the tractor) and we had to cut a little bit of corner off so they didn't hit the case. Otherwise we could have just slid the bracket on first, then jacked up the backhoe frame. Lastly we lightly used the grinder on the backhoe frame on the inside to take off some burrs and to smooth the frame so that sliding the brackets in would be tight and right.

This is the inner bracket that was modified

This is the outer bracket we made

As for the other issues Keno Tractors sent us the PTO hydraulic pump adapter that they got from a dealer in Texas. Turns out that there are two different sizes as the adaptor (which was suppose to be for a HW/JW03 to a 354 tractor) is too small for the HW04 pump and was also to small for the tractor. It didn't fit either side. Waiting for China to now sent to correct part.

Keno made me up a seat adaptor. It consisted of a bracket that could hold two seats, The regular tractor seat and a rear facing one for the backhoe. I don't know if I like that. We might remake it since they gave us the extra seats and sliders now. I like the idea more of having the seat mount to the backhoe so when you take off the backhoe the seat comes off too. With this set up you have to slide the tractor seat forward to slide the backhoe seat back, otherwise they hit each other and then you have an extra seat hanging off (and possibly in the way) the back of the tractor. I will have to take some measurements but it could interfere with other 3 point implements (like my Danuser post hole digger.) I'll post pictures of whatever we end up with for the seat. That's for the suggestiosn guys they are helping!

KyleG · Feb 2, 2009

Ok we are getting close. First here is a picture of the brackets I showed before actually on the tractor

As for the hydraulic PTO pump adaptor, China sent us another one since the 354 adaptor was too small on both sides (pump, and for the PTO) Only hangup we have is that the hydraulic hose/fitting hits the reservoir and we are having a fitting manufactured for us locally. see the adaptor mounted to the tractor. Hope to get that fixed in the next week.

As for the seat, we got a rail from Keno tractors (which they didn't have a tractor to try this on) and to be honest didn't like the configuration it was meant to have the tractor seat and the backhoe seat mounted on the bracket they sent that would mount to the tractor, it would also have still been to high. We made our own that is attached to the backhoe so it comes off when the backhoe is removed like many of them. It's a little tight to do and all things considered we probably would have lengthened the backhoe frame by 3inches if we were to do it all again. That would get rid of the pto adaptor issue and would have made everything not quite as tight. I'm only 5'5" so everything will work fine for me but if you had a 6 foot guy on with long legs you have to move the tractor seat forward and the backhoe seat back.

Final adaptations we will make will be to lower the seat 1.5" from where it's pictured below and then we are making new control levers to bring them back 5-6" so that the controls are a more comfortable reach.

mattman · Feb 2, 2009

You are a better man than I am. After finding out the backhoe would not mount up and the pump adapter not fitting and the seat location not being anywhere close to right, the backhoe and related parts would be own it's way back to where ever it came from. You should not have to make something fit, when the factory is suppose to do all the fitment test way before they start selling stuff to the public. Good luck on getting everything lined out.

Affordable · Feb 3, 2009

You also could have just put a PTO pump on the tractor.Some dealers order tractors backhoe ready which already has the pump adaptors and shaft on them,some don't.The ones that are not require a little work to get them ready.We had so much trouble with the chinese backhoes that I only sold about 8-of them the first year we were in business,I switched then to a better Korean made backhoe. Hopefully you get it up and going soon.

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales

3RRL · Feb 3, 2009

Kyle,
First off I want to commend you on all the fabricating you've done to get that hoe to fit.
It looks to me that Jinma has not had many frame mounted backhoes for the 454? You would think they'd be a little closer to the fitting part. I have a Kama 554 like Brad but an Italian 8' Nardi backhoe. It's a 3pt hoe and I made my own subframe for it to fit the Kama.

I have a question about the frame mount hoe ... why did you decide to go with that rather than the 3pt hoe?
Is there an advantage to frame mount over a subframe mounted 3pt backhoe? Are you ever going to take it off for other rear implement attachments? It looks like that would be quite a chore? I also like Brad's suggestion of that flip-over seat instead of having 2 seats so closely mounted together. I could see the rear one getting in the way except when using the backhoe of course.

One other thing I'm not 100% clear on is the PTO pump.
If your backhoe has it's own pump and reservoir, does your pump not slip over the PTO shaft? It looks like it requires the use of the rear mounted hydraulic pump which bolts to the rear of the tractor. So what do you do there? Leave that pump bolted to the tractor and have quick disconnects from that pump to run the backhoe? I guess I'm not familiar with that set up. Mine has it's own PTO pump too and is self contained with it's own reservoir etc, but my pump slips over the PTO shaft.
Just curious...
Rob-

KyleG · Feb 3, 2009

3RRL said:
why did you decide to go with that rather than the 3pt hoe?
Is there an advantage to frame mount over a subframe mounted 3pt backhoe? Are you ever going to take it off for other rear implement attachments? It looks like that would be quite a chore?

One other thing I'm not 100% clear on is the PTO pump.
If your backhoe has it's own pump and reservoir, does your pump not slip over the PTO shaft? It looks like it requires the use of the rear mounted hydraulic pump which bolts to the rear of the tractor. So what do you do there? Leave that pump bolted to the tractor and have quick disconnects from that pump to run the backhoe?
Rob-

I'll try to answer your questions here. I demanded a frame mount backhoe. Unfortunately my dealer and I did not know that these were the first Jinma 454 framemounts (hence all the problems, but I agree with the other comments Jinma should have done better to test this before letting it out the door, Keno is taking care of me for doing the fabrication, financially and providing the feedback to Jinma directly as Eric at Keno works with them alot.)

In my view (and I went with Keno because they agreed) 3-point backhoes are more dangerous. If you have a solid frame for the hoe (it's built right) you are locked into the tractor and your weight distribution is better making it less likely to tip or break. I have seen Jinma framemounts from a few years ago where the frame was weak (on 354's and smaller and some broke) and my frame looks more solid than those. So I think I'm ok from that end.

Yes I do plan to take it off to attach other implements. It should take less than an hour. I'll have to back into position put a jack under the frame (towards the back by the controls) and remove the plate bolts I showed pics of, lower the back. Put jack under the front attachment, remove the bolt that attaches up front and lower. Remove the pump and adaptor (3 bolts) and reattach the cover (I don't believe you could leave it attached as there is no shutoff, it would always be running the hydraulic pump if you left it on.) Drive forward, and that should be done so I can attach another implement.

To answer the other questions, yes on the Jinma you could use a traditional PTO pump that slips over the PTO shaft, in my case I don't use that one, as Jinma supplies a PTO attachment that uses a different PTO connection, which you saw in the picture with the adaptor on the tractor. That adaptor isn't just bolted on the back, it's drives the Hydraulic pump through that adaptor with a female/female adaptor. It's hidden under the cover (there are pictures with the cover off in my original post), and I haven't tested this theory but I believe it runs any time you have the standard PTO running (not all the time.) Hope that helps.

Brad_Blazer · Feb 3, 2009

Nice work Kyle.
I think your frame mount can still be considered a sub-frame. You might be able to do a considerable amount of maneuvering into position by manipulating the boom and outriggers of the BH. That's what I'm hoping for with mine anyhow.

What are the specs on that backhoe by the way?

Maybe you can bend a dogleg in the joysticks to bring them in a little closer. I wouldn't get too severe to risk goofing up the lever motion. Bend the outrigger levers up to let you move the seat forward? The current position looks a little scary to me.

I did finally make some progress on mine - I mounted the rebuilt control valves, hydraulified the outriggers, plumbed everything to the tractor, and made up the word hydraulified.
I still need to make my subframe.

Brad

3RRL · Feb 3, 2009

Thanks for the explanation Kyle,
I figured your reasoning might be for that. However, I've found with a sturdy subframe, my hoe is as solid as a rock now. The only thing I see would be of considerable value is the proximity of hoe to tractor. I believe having it sit as close to the tractor adds to the over all stability of both. The other issue is ground clearance. If both a 3pt and frame mounted hoe sit the same height from the ground up, the one closer to the tractor will have a little more maneuverability over dips and swales and less likely to get hung up.

You might be able to do a considerable amount of maneuvering into position by manipulating the boom and outriggers of the BH. That's what I'm hoping for with mine anyhow.

This is true but be sure your hoses are long enough to allow attachment so that you can work the hydraulics on the hoe to do this.
At one time my return to sump hose got a tear in it and I cut the bad section off, making it about a foot shorter is all. Now it is a lot harder for me to get the PTO pump on with enough comfortable room between the hoe, my sub frame and the rear of the tractor. I need to change that hose to give me a little more room so I can connect it up and use the hydraulics on the hoe for positioning.
That is not to say I can't do it all, I can, but I've left myself so little space it's stupid. So leave enough room to hook up those hydraulic hoses and work the hoe.

Affordable · Feb 4, 2009

Well it looks like you are getting close to being able to use the backhoe soon,glad Keno worked with you to help resolve the problems,hopefully you will be happy with the operation of it once its completed.Here is a pic of our TomCat korean backhoes you can see the distance of the seat and controls,I have personally dug for about 4-5 hours at a time with this backhoe and it was pretty comfortable

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

Brad_Blazer · Feb 4, 2009

Tommy, those are some slick looking curved boom backhoes!

Affordable · Feb 4, 2009

They are so sweet and smooth,When I was selling the LITW I thought they were good, however once I found these and operated one I was sold and been selling them ever since, for anyone considering a 3-point backhoe they need to take a good at these,I'm trying to get some dealers up in Washington state to take them on too to save some shipping cost to my northern customers.Everybody that has bought one has Loved them.

Thanks for the comments

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company