John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices

[GManBart]

We keep hearing about the price of the LS in comparison to the Kubota or JD. The thing that confuses me is how can they build a "comparable" tractor for less. Lets take a Grand L Kubota for example. It has a Kubota engine, trans, differential, loader and cab on it. So since Kubota is using their own engine they should be able to keep the cost down by using it. I don't thinK LS uses their own engine. Kubota sells more equipment than LS so shouldn't they get a better price on stuff like seats, wheels, tires, switches, senors, glass, bulbs, steering wheels, and other small parts. So how can LS build the same tractor for less?

I don't think anybody discounts the fact that there are a couple of higher tech options available with Deere and Kubota (HST+ and eHydro, for example), and those absolutely should cause a bit of a price increase.

People may not realize that LS Group had nearly the same revenue as Deere did in 2010 (newest figures I saw), and almost 2.5x what Kubota had. With similar revenues, and lower expenses on things like advertising, they aren't all that disadvantaged.

If you're the Koo family that runs LS Group, and who also founded LG, they can probably manage to have the business survive on much thinner profit margins, in order to take away market share from the big names....then crank up the price later. Sort of like what Kubota did back when they first came here.

How can a company like Hyundai compete with Honda and Toyota in quality at a lower price point? There might still be a slight edge to Toyota or Honda, but even that is highly contested by many experts.

 

[arlen4720]

LS does use planetary drives. Kubota still lists the 4060 as an E-TVCS indirect injection engine....it's not an issue there, so I don't see the problem if its used by others? LS/Mitsubishi are getting 47hp out of 153c.i., and Kubota gets 42hp out of 148c.i. Deere only gets 43hp out of 149c.i., and that's with a turbocharger, which adds expense, long-term maintenance, increase operating temps, etc, etc....not that great a bargain, if you ask me, even if it uses a touch less fuel. So much for all that fabulous Deere engineering, if that's all the power they get out of a blown 2.4L engine Heck, Kioti gets 41hp out if 122c.i. My MF gets 48hp out of 152c.i., and only has to turn 2,250 to do so!

I'm not seeing the vast technical advantage so many assume....

My 4720 puts out 66 hp out of the 2.4 L engine. It's the same block as the 4120, just more turbo boost, and a different injection system, and maybe a few other things. That block goes all the way up to 80hp for the industrial engines....The JD Powertech is pretty solid engine. I doubt you could say it's any better than the Kubota or a Yanmar though.

 

[arlen4720]

I think indirect injection is fine...it's simple and cheaper. But, I think generally, direct injection is more fuel efficient, has higher power output potential, and gives you better cold starting.

 

[EMcPhee]

Look, they are all fine tractors-- it all depends on what you want it for. Mine is green, it gets abused regularly and keeps right on going. It is Engineered very well, and even a simpleton like me can service it-- very well designed product. All of the attachments are easy one, easy off including the backhoe. I can't praise the design team at John Deere enough for the product that I own.

Eric

 

[GManBart]

My 4720 puts out 66 hp out of the 2.4 L engine. It's the same block as the 4120, just more turbo boost, and a different injection system, and maybe a few other things. That block goes all the way up to 80hp for the industrial engines....The JD Powertech is pretty solid engine. I doubt you could say it's any better than the Kubota or a Yanmar though.

I don't doubt it's a solid engine, but it really does raise a serious question that applies to the OP, since he's considering one machine with a turbo, and one without.

Why should it take a turbo for Deer to get 43hp out of 2.4L when you can get as much, or more, out of other similar sized engines without a blower?

I asked a Yanmar dealer (looked at an Lx4900) why I would want a smaller engine with a turbo (121c.i. and 48.5hp) compared to a slightly larger engine without, and the only answer he could come up with was fuel efficiency. What he forgot, or didn't know, is that if someone lives at high altitude, the boost would let it still make around rated power, where naturally aspirated engines won't. Other than that, the blower increases temperatures, shortens service life on the engine (yes, it's still very long), and adds up-front expenses.

I'm honestly not trying to bait anybody, but I just don't see how any of that adds up. Maybe there's an emissions component to it as well? Even then, there are plenty of engines without a blower that will be Tier IV compliant, so that shouldn't be enough of a reason either. If there was a significant advantage, you'd think everybody would be going that route, but it sure doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[arlen4720]

I would also think hard on a turbo in that HP range. There are more components as you point out. The low end torque is better with a turbo since you don't have to spin the engine as fast to get the same air volume "rammed in". In the case of the 4120, I think it just gets a turbo by virture of it having the 2.4 powertech. The turbos are pretty reliable...diesels and turbos go together like peanut butter and jelly.

 

[MHarryE]

The Kubota is direct injection - at least for Grand L 60 series. Easier to meet emissions, improved fuel economy, and indirect injection doesn't work with common rail, at least to get the benefits of using a common rail system in this size engine.

 

[crazyal]

A turbo could make a lot of sense. If the owner lives in the mountains at a high elevations a turbo will run rings around a non turbo engine.

 

[GManBart]

A turbo could make a lot of sense. If the owner lives in the mountains at a high elevations a turbo will run rings around a non turbo engine.

I mentioned that in my earlier post. When I asked a Yanmar dealer, he didn't even think of it

 

[arlen4720]

Plus turbos sound cool.:cool2: