Kioti DK40SE HST starting problem

[Typhoon]

Hi folks. I have recently encountered a starting problem with my DK40, and it has me stumped. I will try and explain what is happening, and also what I have ruled out thus far. I have hit a wall so to speak, so hopefully someone can give me some insight. Tractor ran great this summer, no problems. I had a small starting problem last spring where the engine wouldn't turn over at all, but after some quick troubleshooting, I replaced the ignition switch and all was well, no problem. Fast forward to this fall, one day I went to start the tractor, and normally, I let the plugs preheat, hit the ignition, and it fires right up. This time, it cranked for several seconds before finally starting. I thought it was strange, but didn't take it too seriously since it DID start and run fine. Couple days later, same thing. Had to crank it for several seconds before it finally started. Weird. Then for the next few weeks it started normally, cranked right up. I was hoping maybe a little bad fuel or something had worked it's way through and all was well again. I forgot about it. Then, just about 3 weeks ago, I jumped on the tractor to move it real quick, preheat the plugs, turned key, and it cranked..... but wouldn't start. I have an optima battery that is only a few months old, so crank speed is perfect. White smoke billowing out of exhaust, raw fuel, but wouldn't start. The one thing that was different this time, was that it was 20 degrees outside. This was the first time I had tried to start the tractor with a temp outside under 50 degrees. Ok so, I NEEDED to get the tractor out of the way. I grabbed my starting fluid, and left the key on for a couple minutes so that in case the glow plugs WERE working, they had timed out and cooled down before I gave it the shot of starting fluid (didn't want to throw a rod.. lol). One shot of fluid and the tractor cranked right up. So, this got me thinking that I have a glow plug problem. I ordered a replacement preheat relay, replaced it, and still have the same problem. Now, here is where it gets interesting. Yesterday with the new relay installed, I tried to start the tractor and it did the same thing..... it cranked forever, no start. I needed to move tractor, so I grabbed the starting fluid. Same process... made sure the glow plugs were cool, then gave it a shot. It sputtered like it was going to start, but never did. Gave it another shot, same thing. I cranked, and cranked, and cranked... kept giving it shots of fluid, it would sputter (burning just the fluid I assume) then nothing. Another thing to note: It was 50 degrees outside at this point. I was at a loss, didn't know what to do so I opened the hood, and jiggled the connector on the relay to the right of the preheat relay (there are 3 relays, the center one is the preheat relay, but I am not sure what the other 2 relays are). Tried it again, tractor started like a new one. This confused me.... which is why I am posting this. Note: There are 3 relays on the left side of my firewall... I know that the center one is the preheat relay.. but not sure what the other 2 are. I think one is a starter relay, and one is a fuel cutoff maybe. But I don't know which is which. I looked all over the internet and can't find a diagram that shows what they are. So just knowing this info will be a big help. Maybe it was just a fluke that it started... I don't know.. but if anyone has any advice on what I should do next, I would greatly appreciate it. I am far away from the nearest dealer, otherwise I would just run it in. I am hoping I can fix it myself. Maybe a preheat timer?? Thanks in advance for any help on this!

 

[Bavarian]

You may have more than one problem here. First it sounds like a preheat problem. There mightbe a high amp fuse blown somewhere. Do you have power on the glow plugs when the key is in preheat position?

Second sounds like fuel shut off.

Do you hear any relays clicking when you turn your key on?

Touch those questionable relays and have someone turn the key in preheat and on position. Whenever they click, you know what they are.

Good luck.

 

[grsthegreat]

On my dk tractor, the relays arnt in locations as shown in service manual. I had to trace the wires. The stop solonoid and glow plug relays are reversed.

 

[PCo farm]

This may be a dumb question about something you already checked, but: Are you getting reliable fuel flow?

Hi folks. I have recently encountered a starting problem with my DK40, and it has me stumped. I will try and explain what is happening, and also what I have ruled out thus far. I have hit a wall so to speak, so hopefully someone can give me some insight. Tractor ran great this summer, no problems. I had a small starting problem last spring where the engine wouldn't turn over at all, but after some quick troubleshooting, I replaced the ignition switch and all was well, no problem. Fast forward to this fall, one day I went to start the tractor, and normally, I let the plugs preheat, hit the ignition, and it fires right up. This time, it cranked for several seconds before finally starting. I thought it was strange, but didn't take it too seriously since it DID start and run fine. Couple days later, same thing. Had to crank it for several seconds before it finally started. Weird. Then for the next few weeks it started normally, cranked right up. I was hoping maybe a little bad fuel or something had worked it's way through and all was well again. I forgot about it. Then, just about 3 weeks ago, I jumped on the tractor to move it real quick, preheat the plugs, turned key, and it cranked..... but wouldn't start. I have an optima battery that is only a few months old, so crank speed is perfect. White smoke billowing out of exhaust, raw fuel, but wouldn't start. The one thing that was different this time, was that it was 20 degrees outside. This was the first time I had tried to start the tractor with a temp outside under 50 degrees. Ok so, I NEEDED to get the tractor out of the way. I grabbed my starting fluid, and left the key on for a couple minutes so that in case the glow plugs WERE working, they had timed out and cooled down before I gave it the shot of starting fluid (didn't want to throw a rod.. lol). One shot of fluid and the tractor cranked right up. So, this got me thinking that I have a glow plug problem. I ordered a replacement preheat relay, replaced it, and still have the same problem. Now, here is where it gets interesting. Yesterday with the new relay installed, I tried to start the tractor and it did the same thing..... it cranked forever, no start. I needed to move tractor, so I grabbed the starting fluid. Same process... made sure the glow plugs were cool, then gave it a shot. It sputtered like it was going to start, but never did. Gave it another shot, same thing. I cranked, and cranked, and cranked... kept giving it shots of fluid, it would sputter (burning just the fluid I assume) then nothing. Another thing to note: It was 50 degrees outside at this point. I was at a loss, didn't know what to do so I opened the hood, and jiggled the connector on the relay to the right of the preheat relay (there are 3 relays, the center one is the preheat relay, but I am not sure what the other 2 relays are). Tried it again, tractor started like a new one. This confused me.... which is why I am posting this. Note: There are 3 relays on the left side of my firewall... I know that the center one is the preheat relay.. but not sure what the other 2 are. I think one is a starter relay, and one is a fuel cutoff maybe. But I don't know which is which. I looked all over the internet and can't find a diagram that shows what they are. So just knowing this info will be a big help. Maybe it was just a fluke that it started... I don't know.. but if anyone has any advice on what I should do next, I would greatly appreciate it. I am far away from the nearest dealer, otherwise I would just run it in. I am hoping I can fix it myself. Maybe a preheat timer?? Thanks in advance for any help on this!

 

[Looking4new]

On my CK27, the starter relay is the outside one of your 3 relay bank. The center one is glow plug. You might try pulling the plug off the shutdown solonoid and see if you have power there. That plug has a squeeze type Jesus clip on it.

 

[k0ua]

All it would take is a meter on the glow plug bus to tell the tale. you either have voltage on the buss or you don't. Yes the center relay which is rated for 70 amps is the glow plug relay. Are all the connections clean and tight on this relay? Likely not if "jiggling" them equates to normal operation. Inspect and/or recrimp/replace these connections would be one way to possibly fix this. Is the relay coil being energized? It is energized from the display unit. Not only is there pre-heat cycle of 15 seconds there is also a 15 second post glow cycle after the engine has started. Again a quick measurement with your Volt Ohm Meter will tell you if the coil is being provided with voltage to allow it to pull up.

Here is a photo showing the 3 relays on the firewall. BUT keep in mind that 1 and 3 could be reveres, as many operators reverse them as a troubleshooting procedure for no crank situations or no fuel shutoff issues and may or may not put them back to factory original. If there truly is such a thing.

 

[grsthegreat]

dont believe the pictures in manual. i actually unplugged what was labeled preheat relay and the starter wouldnt work.

 

[k0ua]

dont believe the pictures in manual. i actually unplugged what was labeled preheat relay and the starter wouldnt work.

I would see this as a larger problem, as the pre-heat relay's contacts are rated 70 amps and the other two, the starter relay and the fuel relay are both rated 50 amps. I would think the glow plugs would damage the smaller relay contacts over time.

 

[grsthegreat]

I would see this as a larger problem, as the pre-heat relay's contacts are rated 70 amps and the other two, the starter relay and the fuel relay are both rated 50 amps. I would think the glow plugs would damage the smaller relay contacts over time.

i reciently replaced all 3 relays as a percaution when i was having a starting issue. The problem went away. Also replaced stop solonoid. Did not want issues during winter. Glad i did as weve had a hard winter..

 

[Typhoon]

Guys, thanks for taking the time to respond. Let me answer a couple questions that were asked. Yes I believe fuel is being delivered normally, for 2 reasons. First, when the engine is cranking, white smoke is billowing from the exhaust and there is the strong smell of raw fuel. Also, once the tractor does start, it runs like a new one. To answer another question, when I turn the ignition switch, there is a nice loud click (I assume this is the fuel relay), and when I turn the ignition back off, I hear the same exact click again (again I assume the relay). So it seems to me like the fuel stop relay is working as it should. Tonight, I went to start the tractor, and it cranked for a long time, longer than usual, but it finally fired up and ran great. Note: It was warmer than usual this evening at my place, especially for Jan. It was 60 degrees. All of this leads me to believe it is a preheat issue. Now as a reminder of what I have done so far, I did replace the CENTER relay (70A relay, which I assume is the glow plug relay) with a brand new one. Nothing has changed.... thus, my old relay was probably fine. Something is causing an intermittent problem with the glow plugs I think. Since I replaced the relay to no avail, which part would be the next suspect? Glow plug timer? Thanks again!

 

[Highgear]

Some times when things work then don't work it comes down to a ground somewhere .

 

[Looking4new]

I think with all that you've already done, I would chase a bad ground and then take a serious look at the glow plug timer.

 

[k0ua]

The display module controls the glow plug relay, BUT you mentioned wiggling some wires? In the science of troubleshooting the act of replacing parts sequentially is called "the shot gun approach" This can occasionally affect a repair, but is a very inefficient and costly way to troubleshoot a problem. A far far better approach is to do some measurements and form a hypothesis and then test that hypothesis. Did you take a voltage measurement on the glow plug buss? Do you have a VOM and know how to use it? If the answer to one of both of those questions is no, I would suggest you would be money ahead to take the tractor to the dealer for repair or to some other qualified repair facility.

 

[murph1]

The display module controls the glow plug relay, BUT you mentioned wiggling some wires? In the science of troubleshooting the act of replacing parts sequentially is called "the shot gun approach" This can occasionally affect a repair, but is a very inefficient and costly way to troubleshoot a problem. A far far better approach is to do some measurements and form a hypothesis and then test that hypothesis. Did you take a voltage measurement on the glow plug buss? Do you have a VOM and know how to use it? If the answer to one of both of those questions is no, I would suggest you would be money ahead to take the tractor to the dealer for repair or to some other qualified repair facility.

This guy knows what he is talking about. Also with the shotgun approach you don't know what parts are still good or bad.

 

[Typhoon]

I agree with ya about the shotgun approach. I have a fluke meter, and I tested for voltage on glow plug bus during preheat. Problem is, I got intermittent readings. The first several turns of the ignition switch to preheat, i got zero volts. But then the 7th or 8th try, I got voltage. My dad is an electrician, so I am somewhat experienced in troubleshooting electronics. However, the preheat circuit on these tractors is new territory for me. I will do more testing and report back. My hope was that replacing the preheat relay would fix it. Relay was 15 bucks. Didnt work so I will keep working on it. I probably should invest in a shop manual too.

 

[k0ua]

I agree with ya about the shotgun approach. I have a fluke meter, and I tested for voltage on glow plug bus during preheat. Problem is, I got intermittent readings. The first several turns of the ignition switch to preheat, i got zero volts. But then the 7th or 8th try, I got voltage. My dad is an electrician, so I am somewhat experienced in troubleshooting electronics. However, the preheat circuit on these tractors is new territory for me. I will do more testing and report back. My hope was that replacing the preheat relay would fix it. Relay was 15 bucks. Didnt work so I will keep working on it. I probably should invest in a shop manual too.

Yes, that would be money well spent. You have what is known as an intermittent. The absolute worst kind of trouble in any kind of electronic circuit. They say that He77 for an electronics tech is to be tasked to fix a room full of intermittent items. But you can fix this, The next thing I would try to eliminate is the control of the coil of the relay coil by the display module. In other words, is it the display module or not. Or is this some kind of connection problem at the relay pins or what.

 

[ritcheyvs]

On my DK45s, the no-glow/no-start problem turned out to be the key switch. You can replace the switch with new or disassemble and clean/lube it (but don't lose spring-loaded parts).

A quick fix that worked for me is to spray some WD-40 (or electrical contact cleaner) in the key hole and cycle the switch several times. Many of us now do that as routine maintenance.

 

[Typhoon]

Ok so I did some more testing this eve. Here is what I found. I first disconnected the 4 prong plug from the preheat relay, and tested the plug when turning ignition to preheat. When the ignition is turned to preheat, i get 12v on one of the side connections. When the preheat light goes off, voltage drops to zero. All good. I then plugged the connector back to the relay, and the relay clicks when ignition is turned to preheat. So it seems that the relay is working properly. However, with that being said, I am still getting zero volts on the glow plug bus every time. The glow plugs are not being energized. So the problem is somewhere between the relay and the plugs. Im open for suggestions as to my next step.

 

[k0ua]

Ok so I did some more testing this eve. Here is what I found. I first disconnected the 4 prong plug from the preheat relay, and tested the plug when turning ignition to preheat. When the ignition is turned to preheat, i get 12v on one of the side connections. When the preheat light goes off, voltage drops to zero. All good. I then plugged the connector back to the relay, and the relay clicks when ignition is turned to preheat. So it seems that the relay is working properly. However, with that being said, I am still getting zero volts on the glow plug bus every time. The glow plugs are not being energized. So the problem is somewhere between the relay and the plugs. Im open for suggestions as to my next step.

Ok, almost there. So either the relay contacts are burned and not conducting (yes I know you put a new one in but that don't mean a thing) or the connections on the relay plug are defective. Or a wire is broken. The battery connection to the relay contact is Orange and the feed to the glow plug buss is Orange/Brown or so my manual says. In any case you should have battery voltage standing on one contact and it should switch it to the other. Take a pin and pierce the insulation if you need to to get a reading after the relay in energized by the controller for the 8 seconds. (I said 15 earlier but that is wrong, it should be 8 seconds) So find the battery voltage and see if the contacts switch it to the load of the glow plugs. After the engine starts, it post glows for 15 seconds, even though the glow plug indicator on the dashboard does not show that.

 

[k0ua]

Those orange and orange/brown wires should be 5mm thick. So pretty big wires. Look at the bottom of the relay. pins 30 and 87 are the contacts, and pins 85 and 86 are the coil. You already know the expensive controller and apparently the temp sensor in the block are good or else the relay coil would not have energized and the relay would not have pulled up. But you say it clicked, so it pulled up, now all you have to do is measure for 12 volts on one of the contacts wires. Orange, and see that 12 volts leave the other side of the relay contact and head for the glow plugs on the orange/brown wire. Man you are within a gnats behind of having this thing fixed.