Kioti = Heavy!

Bob_Skurka · May 12, 2004

To20Chris . . . please re-read my post, I was not specifically saying Kioti versus Kubota, I believe I even said something to the effect that I was making a broad stroke type of a comment about technology overall and talked about some european brands as well. The issue of casting came up during the thread, I tried to comment on it.

In the rest of my post I discuss the USE of the tractor and talk about more versus less weight for specific tasks that the tractor is used for. Personally I don't think it is good or bad to have more or less weight on a machine until you tell me what the machine is going to be used for. The original poster questions why the Kioti weighs a lot and why the Kubota doesn't and what difference it makes.

But if you want my personal opinion, I will say the for the typical small property owner who uses a small tractor to help maintain their property, then the advantage of a lighter weight tractor would lead me to a brand like Kubota over a Kioti on every model of the smaller units. I see no real advantage for hauling around an extra 300 to 500 pounds on my lawn so I can tear it up, or to dig ruts into my lawn when the ground is a bit moist. I would strongly favor wheel weights, suitcase weights, or other add on weights for the times when using ground engaging implements, an FEL, etc. The advantages of lighter weight in a small tractor simply outweigh the disadvantages because most smaller tractors spend a lot of time either mowing the lawn or driving across a lawn. Now if you are going to use it for landscape construction then I would say that I would buy the heavier tractor . . . but I did qualify my statement and say that for the typcial small property owner the lighter tractor is probably better in the small size units.

To20Chris · May 12, 2004

I agree there are some advantages to the ladder frame - the ability to position things like the mid PTO is one of them, and probably why the B series has such good ground clearance. It is all part of understanding that these machines are all designed for a particular purpose. The B Kubotas are excellent mowers, and the design is clearly optimized for that. Big engines, light weight. They do other things as well, but the design is biased toward one particular kind of use - I am not implying that there is anything wrong with that, it is just useful to understand it so it you can make an informed decision as to whether it is a good match for what you want to do. If you want to run a MMM and use a BH occasionally, then the B Kubota mat be the way to go, although you could put a 3PH BH on a CK20HST too. If you only want to mow, then there are also other kinds of machines (Ventrac, etc) that would be good choices. It all depends on your particular situation.

When ever these issues come up, inevitably there will be some variation of "well Kubota has space age technology, and the others are beaten out with hammers on flat rocks by the river" nonsense. My apologies, but it does get a bit irritating. I've seen no rocket science in any of them, some designs are better at some tasks than others. Some designs may be better period. I try to deal with facts so that others can understand the differences and make an informed choice. Fortunately there are a lot of good choices out there right now.

To20Chris · May 12, 2004

I agree that for mowing lighter is better, and have said so many times. I just don't like to assume that people will be using the CUT to mow with - I might sometimes use mine to brush hog, but it will never do finish mowing, and accordingly my CUT is heavy and has no mid PTO. It would be a bad choice for many people, but it works great for me. Before I made my decision, I watched my neighbor try to get the FEL on his Kubota B to bite, and wondered why it was strugging. Another freind has an L35 TLB, and never had that problem. Two different designs. The guy with the B bought his mainly to mow with - a fine choice!

The gentleman asked why the CK20 is heavier - and having looked at exactly the same thing, I know it is the ladder frame vs. casting construction that makes up the majority of the difference.

I'm REALLY not on a brand crusade here - I'm just trying to impart useful information, and to counter some mis-information when needed!

Zoomie · May 12, 2004

Thanks to each of you.

Like I said, I can't compare these two side by side, and I'm looking at new tractors for the first time in at least 10 years, so the thought of ladder frame vs castings didn't occur to me... it does make sense. I've been sitting on my old Ford for so long that when I think tractors, I automatically think of castings joined together to form the whole machine.

My tractror probably mows as much as it does other things, and while I don't plow, I do run a tiller and move dirt around (with a rear scoop).

My Ford isn't especially hard on my place, in terms of ruts, but I don't use it in the "yard", just on the balance of my acreage.

IF I buy a new CU tractor, I would likely use it to mow closer in to the house, so then turf damage would become an issue.

FEL "bite" probably won't be an issue, as most of my uses for it would be to move some high spots into a some low spots, and I'm quite used to tilling the high spots first, which makes them easier to "scoop" up.

Thanks again, I wasn't trying to instigate more brand-warfare, but looking at the specs, and only thinking about conventional construction, the weight differences didn't make alot of sense.

DK35vince · May 12, 2004

( I wasn't trying to instigate more brand-warfare, but looking at the specs. )

Don't worry, You didn't.
You asked a good question.
I hear a lot about ladder frames but I'm still not sure what that is.
Next time I stop and check out Kubota's I'll try to remember to look closer at the 7510 to see what this ladder frame thing is.

To20Chris · May 12, 2004

Vince - It's just lousey terminology for a stamped steel structure that connects the power unit in front to the rear axle assembly in back. Not too different than a truck. I'm not sure what Kubota actually calls it.

DK35vince · May 12, 2004

OK, thanks.
Thats something I'd like to see. Problem is I always seem to forget about it when looking at Kubota's.
I always looked at the L series, never payed much attention to the B and BX series, so I don't know much about them ..

KiotiJohn · May 12, 2004

( If you want to run a MMM and use a BH occasionally, then the B Kubota mat be the way to go, although you could put a 3PH BH on a CK20HST too. )
In all fairness, I must point out that Kioti specifically states that a 3ph BH is NOT to be used on the CK20, only a subframe BH. After having used my BH quite a bit, I can see why. I wouldn't want a 3ph BH on ANY tractor after seeing how much stress would be on the three point and the rear casing. A MMM cannot be used on the CK20 along with a BH. The two frame supports are not compatible. Some Kubotas allow the use of both. As for the weight, yes, the ladder frame has a lot to do with it, and also, heavy sheet metal makes up the frame of the CK20 whereas Kubota uses a little smaller guage and more plastics along with more use of aluminum components. Before someone comes jumping, I DID compare these side by side and I know the difference. The advantage I've always found with more weight is that I can better use the avaiable horsepower. Generally, the wheels of tractors always have a slip factor which is increased with lighter weight / more HP. With greater weight, the slip factor is reduced, and more HP is transmitted to the ground. This helps a lot when pulling trees, loading, ploughing, etc. I find that for brush cutting in moist areas, my CK20 doesn't do any more damage than my HST lawn tractor unless I am careless and do a lot of turns in the same area. I don't do finish mowing with it. Add all of that together, and the fact that I saved over $2000 over Kubota, and nearly $3,000 over JD, and one has a pretty good idea of why I chose Kioti. John

To20Chris · May 12, 2004

John, I stand corrected. I think if you want to use a MMM on anything it pretty much precludes a subframe mounted BH, not sure though. That leaves a 3PH BH, but that is unappealing to me too.

BotaGuy · May 12, 2004

The ladder frame is PLATE STEEL, lots of it, and thick. The plate stell "Ladders" run the full length of the chassis with extra reinforcements along the way. This is opposed to a more traditional tractor design...that uses heavey cast transmission cases, and parts that double as the "Chassis of the tractor. If you have looked at an 8n Ford, you will understand what I mean. Some of the New Hollands and Fords use this as well.....and maybe Kioti??? though i am not sure.

Historically I have heard many complaints on the NH, and Fords compacts of the tractor splitting in two after backhoe use. Constant stress to cast iron items can cause stress cracks and lead to broken tractors...literally split in half. The heavy steel ladder frame in a Kubota B series, or BX series for that matter would not break in half do to the strength charactersitics and design of the frame. I am not saying the frame is indestructable...but I have not run across anyone who complained about a broken Kubota frame.

And actually on the Fords, it was the connection of one frame section to another where the weak link was.