Kioti Isn't Worth the Risk
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MessickFarmEqu
Super Member
Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Bob I was quoted 22,500 on an mx5000 in New Jersey. HOw is that right there? Lets not forget a bout all the features?? Where do you get your facts from? Show me a quote for that price? )</font>
I sell it, and its more than 18,500 but not much. $22,500 is near full list price. The only feature difference would be that the MX does not have a shuttle, but its also a larger tractor, an L4400 would probably be a more fair comparision. Thats right about 19,000 with a loader. The point is that pricing is regional and the mantra that Kioti is always cheaper by some huge margin is simply not true in all areas.
Someone mentioned somthing about Mahindra being #4. I saw firm numbers about a year about with Mahindra having US sales of just over 8000 units. They know that from port records. I have never heard anyone from either Kubota or NH ever mention Kioti. 2-3 days ago I found on on of their international website that they had about 50mil of US sales with 5 mil in profits. If you figure an average sale price of 16k and deduct some for parts volume, etc. Its safe to assume that Kioti is right about 3,000 units/year. Thats less than half the sales of Mahindra.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Bob I was quoted 22,500 on an mx5000 in New Jersey. HOw is that right there? Lets not forget a bout all the features?? Where do you get your facts from? Show me a quote for that price? )</font>
I sell it, and its more than 18,500 but not much. $22,500 is near full list price. The only feature difference would be that the MX does not have a shuttle, but its also a larger tractor, an L4400 would probably be a more fair comparision. Thats right about 19,000 with a loader. The point is that pricing is regional and the mantra that Kioti is always cheaper by some huge margin is simply not true in all areas.
Someone mentioned somthing about Mahindra being #4. I saw firm numbers about a year about with Mahindra having US sales of just over 8000 units. They know that from port records. I have never heard anyone from either Kubota or NH ever mention Kioti. 2-3 days ago I found on on of their international website that they had about 50mil of US sales with 5 mil in profits. If you figure an average sale price of 16k and deduct some for parts volume, etc. Its safe to assume that Kioti is right about 3,000 units/year. Thats less than half the sales of Mahindra.
shoppintractors
Veteran Member
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- Southeast, Michigan
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Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
<font color="blue"> 2-3 days ago I found on on of their international website that they had about 50mil of US sales with 5 mil in profits. If you figure an average sale price of 16k and deduct some for parts volume, etc. Its safe to assume that Kioti is right about 3,000 units/year. </font>
It also says those numbers are from 2003......
Daedong is also increasing their engine production from 20,000 to 48,000 by 2006.
<font color="blue">Daedong announced a new investment plan for engine facilities. The total investment budget is USD 37,576,439 for the full product capacity of 48,000 Engines from current 20,000 Engines, which is planned to be accomplished by the end of May 2006.
</font>
Don
<font color="blue"> 2-3 days ago I found on on of their international website that they had about 50mil of US sales with 5 mil in profits. If you figure an average sale price of 16k and deduct some for parts volume, etc. Its safe to assume that Kioti is right about 3,000 units/year. </font>
It also says those numbers are from 2003......
Daedong is also increasing their engine production from 20,000 to 48,000 by 2006.
<font color="blue">Daedong announced a new investment plan for engine facilities. The total investment budget is USD 37,576,439 for the full product capacity of 48,000 Engines from current 20,000 Engines, which is planned to be accomplished by the end of May 2006.
</font>
Don
gippolit
Silver Member
Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( </font><font color="blueclass=small">( Bob I was quoted 22,500 on an mx5000 in New Jersey. HOw is that right there? Lets not forget a bout all the features?? Where do you get your facts from? Show me a quote for that price? )</font>
I sell it, and its more than 18,500 but not much. $22,500 is near full list price. The only feature difference would be that the MX does not have a shuttle, but its also a larger tractor, an L4400 would probably be a more fair comparision. Thats right about 19,000 with a loader. The point is that pricing is regional and the mantra that Kioti is always cheaper by some huge margin is simply not true in all areas.
)</font>
I don't think you would sell for 19K. Second would that include a front grill gard? 55am alternator, rear hydro values, Shuttle shift tran? When someone makes statement they are correct if you add all those features???? Don't you think?
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( </font><font color="blueclass=small">( Bob I was quoted 22,500 on an mx5000 in New Jersey. HOw is that right there? Lets not forget a bout all the features?? Where do you get your facts from? Show me a quote for that price? )</font>
I sell it, and its more than 18,500 but not much. $22,500 is near full list price. The only feature difference would be that the MX does not have a shuttle, but its also a larger tractor, an L4400 would probably be a more fair comparision. Thats right about 19,000 with a loader. The point is that pricing is regional and the mantra that Kioti is always cheaper by some huge margin is simply not true in all areas.
)</font>
I don't think you would sell for 19K. Second would that include a front grill gard? 55am alternator, rear hydro values, Shuttle shift tran? When someone makes statement they are correct if you add all those features???? Don't you think?
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
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Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
Glen, Why must you attack people?
On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? The vast majority of people never draw more than 12 to 15 amps . . . at night with their lights on.
Further, those rare few of us who have added extra lights, and we are pretty rare, don't typically draw more than about 40amps when running the extra lights. Any surplus above the draw is essentially unused and pointless. For that matter, there is no real reason why you couldn't run extra lights (and understand that probably 85% of the small tractor owners don't add extra lights) and simply draw your battery down a bit and it will recharge as soon as the lights are turned off. There are dozens of examples of that right here on TBN with the sub-CUT owners.
Please understand that TBN members seem to be tractor hobbiests and we seem to "pimp our rides" far more than typical owners who never do anything to their tractors. I'm pretty darn sure that the local dealer who installed my TNT system thinks I am nuts, the mechanic I deal with said they never had a request to install anything like that on a tractor under 50hp, not even for the professional landscaper's who are their customers. As for things like rear remotes, I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. So assume $500 installed (and people have quoted lower prices here on TBN so I am being pretty fair in the $500 guess). Sure that takes the price up a bit, roughly $19,100 for the MX5000, but it is on a tractor with 5 more horsepower. Or, with the L4400, the price would be about $19,500 with the remotes. So I think that Neil's point is that Kubota is not universally overpriced as you seem to imply. Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. Further, rico304, who is pricing small tractors right now found Kioti to be a bit more than a small Kubota, but also that Kioti dealers prices were very inconsistent with some being a little more and some being a lot more.
What you can't seem to grasp is that people here are NOT criticizing the brand. But you seem to take great pleasure in simply attacking people. TBN is not about that. The one issue that has universally been pointed out is that Kioti has SOME serious dealer issues. You focus on parcing words and phrases, much like a politician, rather than on the issue.
As for your assertation that Neil might be a liar when you stated: <font color="red"> I don't think you would sell for 19K. </font> I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership for great prices, professional assistance and service before you start slinging mud that you <font color="red"> think </font> rather than real facts.
----------------
shoppingtractors (Don), I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say the sales went up 50%, that would put sales at 4500 units? That is pretty good, but its still a long cry from Mahindra's numbers, and Mahindra grew in sales over the past year, pretty substantially from what I've been told (and Kubota also had a record year too). It is also my understanding that for 2004 the entire industry went up.
I guess the question is, did the ratios change? Speaking only to tractors 50hp and below . . . We know Kubota has increased market share nationally to something over 50%, we know in some regions it is 60%. We know that JD and New Holland both lost a bit of market share, but their sales volume was level. Personally I think Kioti is growing and on the right track, but I also think the same is true for several other brands. Kioti & Mahindra, in my mind, are probably going to see increases in the coming years. Both, however, have more dealer problems than they need. Both have that as their hurdle.
Glen, Why must you attack people?
On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? The vast majority of people never draw more than 12 to 15 amps . . . at night with their lights on.
Further, those rare few of us who have added extra lights, and we are pretty rare, don't typically draw more than about 40amps when running the extra lights. Any surplus above the draw is essentially unused and pointless. For that matter, there is no real reason why you couldn't run extra lights (and understand that probably 85% of the small tractor owners don't add extra lights) and simply draw your battery down a bit and it will recharge as soon as the lights are turned off. There are dozens of examples of that right here on TBN with the sub-CUT owners.
Please understand that TBN members seem to be tractor hobbiests and we seem to "pimp our rides" far more than typical owners who never do anything to their tractors. I'm pretty darn sure that the local dealer who installed my TNT system thinks I am nuts, the mechanic I deal with said they never had a request to install anything like that on a tractor under 50hp, not even for the professional landscaper's who are their customers. As for things like rear remotes, I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. So assume $500 installed (and people have quoted lower prices here on TBN so I am being pretty fair in the $500 guess). Sure that takes the price up a bit, roughly $19,100 for the MX5000, but it is on a tractor with 5 more horsepower. Or, with the L4400, the price would be about $19,500 with the remotes. So I think that Neil's point is that Kubota is not universally overpriced as you seem to imply. Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. Further, rico304, who is pricing small tractors right now found Kioti to be a bit more than a small Kubota, but also that Kioti dealers prices were very inconsistent with some being a little more and some being a lot more.
What you can't seem to grasp is that people here are NOT criticizing the brand. But you seem to take great pleasure in simply attacking people. TBN is not about that. The one issue that has universally been pointed out is that Kioti has SOME serious dealer issues. You focus on parcing words and phrases, much like a politician, rather than on the issue.
As for your assertation that Neil might be a liar when you stated: <font color="red"> I don't think you would sell for 19K. </font> I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership for great prices, professional assistance and service before you start slinging mud that you <font color="red"> think </font> rather than real facts.
----------------
shoppingtractors (Don), I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say the sales went up 50%, that would put sales at 4500 units? That is pretty good, but its still a long cry from Mahindra's numbers, and Mahindra grew in sales over the past year, pretty substantially from what I've been told (and Kubota also had a record year too). It is also my understanding that for 2004 the entire industry went up.
I guess the question is, did the ratios change? Speaking only to tractors 50hp and below . . . We know Kubota has increased market share nationally to something over 50%, we know in some regions it is 60%. We know that JD and New Holland both lost a bit of market share, but their sales volume was level. Personally I think Kioti is growing and on the right track, but I also think the same is true for several other brands. Kioti & Mahindra, in my mind, are probably going to see increases in the coming years. Both, however, have more dealer problems than they need. Both have that as their hurdle.
shoppintractors
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 1,219
- Location
- Southeast, Michigan
- Tractor
- Shoppin', Formerly Ford 1220, 7106 FEL, 60
Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
<font color="blue"> On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? </font>
It's because Kioti puts the largest light package on their tractors.
<font color="blue">I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. </font>
Why not let Neil speak for himself?
<font color="blue"> Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. </font>
Dargo made a visit or two and posts the same visit many, many, many times.
<font color="blue">I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. </font>
I see Neil's post not much different than XYZ tractor company comparing their new models using dated machines from ABC & DEF tractor company.
<font color="blue">Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say.....</font>
Bob, as **** about numbers as you are, why are you even remotely speculating? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<font color="blue"> Glen, Why must you attack people? </font>
Bob, give it a break. You have made some very controversial posts yourself. Been deleted more than once. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black. On the other side of the coin you've made many excellent posts. I did however miss the memo nominating you for
'hall monitor'. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.
<font color="blue">I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership........</font>
You might want to advise Neil to take out some
paid advertising in the KUBOTA forum. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Don
<font color="blue"> On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? </font>
It's because Kioti puts the largest light package on their tractors.
<font color="blue">I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. </font>
Why not let Neil speak for himself?
<font color="blue"> Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. </font>
Dargo made a visit or two and posts the same visit many, many, many times.
<font color="blue">I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. </font>
I see Neil's post not much different than XYZ tractor company comparing their new models using dated machines from ABC & DEF tractor company.
<font color="blue">Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say.....</font>
Bob, as **** about numbers as you are, why are you even remotely speculating? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<font color="blue"> Glen, Why must you attack people? </font>
Bob, give it a break. You have made some very controversial posts yourself. Been deleted more than once. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black. On the other side of the coin you've made many excellent posts. I did however miss the memo nominating you for
'hall monitor'. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.
<font color="blue">I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership........</font>
You might want to advise Neil to take out some
paid advertising in the KUBOTA forum. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Don
gippolit
Silver Member
Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Glen, Why must you attack people?
On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? The vast majority of people never draw more than 12 to 15 amps . . . at night with their lights on.
Further, those rare few of us who have added extra lights, and we are pretty rare, don't typically draw more than about 40amps when running the extra lights. Any surplus above the draw is essentially unused and pointless. For that matter, there is no real reason why you couldn't run extra lights (and understand that probably 85% of the small tractor owners don't add extra lights) and simply draw your battery down a bit and it will recharge as soon as the lights are turned off. There are dozens of examples of that right here on TBN with the sub-CUT owners.
Please understand that TBN members seem to be tractor hobbiests and we seem to "pimp our rides" far more than typical owners who never do anything to their tractors. I'm pretty darn sure that the local dealer who installed my TNT system thinks I am nuts, the mechanic I deal with said they never had a request to install anything like that on a tractor under 50hp, not even for the professional landscaper's who are their customers. As for things like rear remotes, I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. So assume $500 installed (and people have quoted lower prices here on TBN so I am being pretty fair in the $500 guess). Sure that takes the price up a bit, roughly $19,100 for the MX5000, but it is on a tractor with 5 more horsepower. Or, with the L4400, the price would be about $19,500 with the remotes. So I think that Neil's point is that Kubota is not universally overpriced as you seem to imply. Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. Further, rico304, who is pricing small tractors right now found Kioti to be a bit more than a small Kubota, but also that Kioti dealers prices were very inconsistent with some being a little more and some being a lot more.
What you can't seem to grasp is that people here are NOT criticizing the brand. But you seem to take great pleasure in simply attacking people. TBN is not about that. The one issue that has universally been pointed out is that Kioti has SOME serious dealer issues. You focus on parcing words and phrases, much like a politician, rather than on the issue.
As for your assertation that Neil might be a liar when you stated: <font color="red"> I don't think you would sell for 19K. </font> I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership for great prices, professional assistance and service before you start slinging mud that you <font color="red"> think </font> rather than real facts.
----------------
shoppingtractors (Don), I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say the sales went up 50%, that would put sales at 4500 units? That is pretty good, but its still a long cry from Mahindra's numbers, and Mahindra grew in sales over the past year, pretty substantially from what I've been told (and Kubota also had a record year too). It is also my understanding that for 2004 the entire industry went up.
I guess the question is, did the ratios change? Speaking only to tractors 50hp and below . . . We know Kubota has increased market share nationally to something over 50%, we know in some regions it is 60%. We know that JD and New Holland both lost a bit of market share, but their sales volume was level. Personally I think Kioti is growing and on the right track, but I also think the same is true for several other brands. Kioti & Mahindra, in my mind, are probably going to see increases in the coming years. Both, however, have more dealer problems than they need. Both have that as their hurdle.
)</font>
Bob,
It seems to me any extra features Kioit has is not what people hear on TNB need and or want? Hum I guess your the TNB police! I stated facts and once again you stated Bob's versions of facts.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Glen, Why must you attack people?
On small tractors, I will grant you that Kioti puts the largest standard alternators of any brand. But so what? The vast majority of people never draw more than 12 to 15 amps . . . at night with their lights on.
Further, those rare few of us who have added extra lights, and we are pretty rare, don't typically draw more than about 40amps when running the extra lights. Any surplus above the draw is essentially unused and pointless. For that matter, there is no real reason why you couldn't run extra lights (and understand that probably 85% of the small tractor owners don't add extra lights) and simply draw your battery down a bit and it will recharge as soon as the lights are turned off. There are dozens of examples of that right here on TBN with the sub-CUT owners.
Please understand that TBN members seem to be tractor hobbiests and we seem to "pimp our rides" far more than typical owners who never do anything to their tractors. I'm pretty darn sure that the local dealer who installed my TNT system thinks I am nuts, the mechanic I deal with said they never had a request to install anything like that on a tractor under 50hp, not even for the professional landscaper's who are their customers. As for things like rear remotes, I'm going to jump in and guess that Neil can add them. So assume $500 installed (and people have quoted lower prices here on TBN so I am being pretty fair in the $500 guess). Sure that takes the price up a bit, roughly $19,100 for the MX5000, but it is on a tractor with 5 more horsepower. Or, with the L4400, the price would be about $19,500 with the remotes. So I think that Neil's point is that Kubota is not universally overpriced as you seem to imply. Further, Dargo posted comparisions several times when he priced Kioti where Kioti was priced in the same league as JD. Further, rico304, who is pricing small tractors right now found Kioti to be a bit more than a small Kubota, but also that Kioti dealers prices were very inconsistent with some being a little more and some being a lot more.
What you can't seem to grasp is that people here are NOT criticizing the brand. But you seem to take great pleasure in simply attacking people. TBN is not about that. The one issue that has universally been pointed out is that Kioti has SOME serious dealer issues. You focus on parcing words and phrases, much like a politician, rather than on the issue.
As for your assertation that Neil might be a liar when you stated: <font color="red"> I don't think you would sell for 19K. </font> I think you really need to go and look around at all the posts from various TBN members who compliment Neil's family dealership for great prices, professional assistance and service before you start slinging mud that you <font color="red"> think </font> rather than real facts.
----------------
shoppingtractors (Don), I agree with you that the sales volume numbers are probably from 2003 and they have certainly gone up since then. Even if we take a wild stab at a number and say the sales went up 50%, that would put sales at 4500 units? That is pretty good, but its still a long cry from Mahindra's numbers, and Mahindra grew in sales over the past year, pretty substantially from what I've been told (and Kubota also had a record year too). It is also my understanding that for 2004 the entire industry went up.
I guess the question is, did the ratios change? Speaking only to tractors 50hp and below . . . We know Kubota has increased market share nationally to something over 50%, we know in some regions it is 60%. We know that JD and New Holland both lost a bit of market share, but their sales volume was level. Personally I think Kioti is growing and on the right track, but I also think the same is true for several other brands. Kioti & Mahindra, in my mind, are probably going to see increases in the coming years. Both, however, have more dealer problems than they need. Both have that as their hurdle.
)</font>
Bob,
It seems to me any extra features Kioit has is not what people hear on TNB need and or want? Hum I guess your the TNB police! I stated facts and once again you stated Bob's versions of facts.
MessickFarmEqu
Super Member
Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
Gosh guys, I don't see what the big deal is here. One point was made, that point is the pricing is not always cheaper like people claim it is... thats a plain and simple fact. I'd guess that dealer net on those models is probably lower, it should be, however the volumes are so low that the dealer margins have to be higher. The numbers I posted on some of the Kubota models are not firm sale prices, it is very possible for those tractors to sell around those prices. If you want to get into a feature for feature comaprison thats for a different thread.
Yes, the numbers off Kioti's website are from 03... if you have some more current information I'd like to see it. As of now, thats the best I have seen and the only thing we have to go off of. This is nothing that anyone should be taking offence to, its simple discussion about the company and I appologize if someone is offended by it. Not too long ago someone posted that Zetor sells about 500 tractors a year, but no one screamed wolf about that.
Gosh guys, I don't see what the big deal is here. One point was made, that point is the pricing is not always cheaper like people claim it is... thats a plain and simple fact. I'd guess that dealer net on those models is probably lower, it should be, however the volumes are so low that the dealer margins have to be higher. The numbers I posted on some of the Kubota models are not firm sale prices, it is very possible for those tractors to sell around those prices. If you want to get into a feature for feature comaprison thats for a different thread.
Yes, the numbers off Kioti's website are from 03... if you have some more current information I'd like to see it. As of now, thats the best I have seen and the only thing we have to go off of. This is nothing that anyone should be taking offence to, its simple discussion about the company and I appologize if someone is offended by it. Not too long ago someone posted that Zetor sells about 500 tractors a year, but no one screamed wolf about that.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
Re: Kioti Isn\'t Worth the Risk
This is getting pretty silly folks. I have consistently defended Kioti in this thread since it was restarted, but pointed out that some strengths might not be as strong as some would spout. But still people are attacking.
So to Don, OK I've seen prices on adding rear remotes in the range of $350 to $500. I quoted $500 because it seemed more appropriate to guess up to the higher number.
As for you telling me to instruct Neil to take out an advertisement, he can do what he wants. I am not his boss and you are not mine.
As for Dargo's experiences, he shopped his dealers when he was in the market. Why is that experience not valid today when it was valid last year when he bought? He has a right to now post what he posted, and it is reasonable and fair. And it illustrates a point that even several Kioti owners pointed out . . . dealer problems.
As for me posting controversial posts, sure I do. But I don't attack people, which is what Glen seems to do. And for that matter, when I have been wrong, I've admitted it. But the controversy of my posts is that they often stir up emotion, I leave that at the door. The fights that start after others start getting emotional are pretty obvious. The problem is I am NOT brand loyal, and I am willing to point out problems with any brand. Buyers need to get honest assessments of the products, not emotional blather that is nothing more than a glossed over sales pitch.
As for Kioti putting bigger light packages in than any other brand? Huh? Many brands, both big 3 and minor, put 4 55-watt headlamps and a full compliment of tail lamps, and offer rear Aux lights. That's all pretty much the same by my book.
And finally to Glen, you say it is my version of the truth, but in fact you can't really refute my words and have never been able to. I could think about what you wrote, but it just isn't worth considering.
This is getting pretty silly folks. I have consistently defended Kioti in this thread since it was restarted, but pointed out that some strengths might not be as strong as some would spout. But still people are attacking.
So to Don, OK I've seen prices on adding rear remotes in the range of $350 to $500. I quoted $500 because it seemed more appropriate to guess up to the higher number.
As for you telling me to instruct Neil to take out an advertisement, he can do what he wants. I am not his boss and you are not mine.
As for Dargo's experiences, he shopped his dealers when he was in the market. Why is that experience not valid today when it was valid last year when he bought? He has a right to now post what he posted, and it is reasonable and fair. And it illustrates a point that even several Kioti owners pointed out . . . dealer problems.
As for me posting controversial posts, sure I do. But I don't attack people, which is what Glen seems to do. And for that matter, when I have been wrong, I've admitted it. But the controversy of my posts is that they often stir up emotion, I leave that at the door. The fights that start after others start getting emotional are pretty obvious. The problem is I am NOT brand loyal, and I am willing to point out problems with any brand. Buyers need to get honest assessments of the products, not emotional blather that is nothing more than a glossed over sales pitch.
As for Kioti putting bigger light packages in than any other brand? Huh? Many brands, both big 3 and minor, put 4 55-watt headlamps and a full compliment of tail lamps, and offer rear Aux lights. That's all pretty much the same by my book.
And finally to Glen, you say it is my version of the truth, but in fact you can't really refute my words and have never been able to. I could think about what you wrote, but it just isn't worth considering.
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