Kioti Vs Deere - what to buy...

MikeFromVA · Jun 30, 2004

I'm guessing that most ppl in this forum favor the Kioti, but let's run this.

I will be moving to a new home in 3 weeks. The lot is 7 acres - 1.5 lawn / 2.5 former hay field / 2 forest / 1 low area. The primary function will be to mow 75% (I do plan to try to convert the former hay field to lawn). I will also be using the tractor for other stuff (will be building shed/patio/play ground/fence and some landscaping).

Prices:
JD 2210 W/ FEL & 62" MMM - $13,200 (0% for 2yrs)
Kioti CK20HST W/ FEL = $13,000 (0% for 3yrs)
- plus $2700 For 60" MMM (isn't this a lot)
- or $1000 For 60" Rear Mower (dealer says works better than MMM)

-- Dealer say CK20 is smaller (but heavier) then JD2210 and that the comparable Kioti is a LB1914 (No HST avail)

LB1914 W/ FEL - $12,000 (0% for 3 yrs)
- same mower options as CK20

Any pointers or comparisons would be helpful. Don't both Kioti's have full Cat 1 PTO?

SteveH_CT · Jun 30, 2004

I can't comment on which one to choose since I havent used either tractor. I'm curious about one point - I think for a fair price comparison I would get the quote from both dealers for a rear mower and a mid-mount mower. Then you can actually compare the total price with the set-up you want.

I would have posted this in a more general forum to get more views and opinions.

Tell us about the dealers you've been to... who's closer, who's likely to service the tractor better. There are plenty of things to consider - but it sounds like you've arrived at two good choices already. Have you looked at NH's new models? They would be worth a glance - and heck - in this size class I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the Bota's. They have some great little tractors in this class as well.

Undoubtedly there are happy owners of both tractors you've mentioned. And we're sometimes all too willing to "help" you make a decision. Just keep in mind what features are most important to you.

It would be worth your while to dig up a post someone made about a month ago relating to a new tractor purchase. They related in their post how they got overly consumed with specs and comparative analysis between models. It will become pretty apparent to you which machine is right after you've spent some time in the seat of all the ones you're interested in.

Good Luck with the search,

shoppintractors · Jun 30, 2004

-- Dealer say CK20 is smaller (but heavier) then JD2210 

I've sat on both and I don't see where the CK20 is smaller than the Deere 2210. There might be some confusion here. The CK20 fits in the small frame CUT class. The Deere 2210 is a sub-CUT. A closer comparable would be the Deere 4110.

This thread would fit better in the Buying/Pricing/Comparison forum.

Don

Yankee · Jun 30, 2004

As a general comment, I'm not sure you've focused on the best machines for what you've described. As I see it, the 2210 is too much of a compromise on a property that size on anything but the mowing, the CK20, while certainly usable for mowing, wouldn't be my first choice for the task, and the 1914 is a gear tractor, not the best for mowing or FEL work and landscaping for the average non-professional, though the shuttle helps. If you are fixed on those particular tractors, I'd take the CK over the others. It will excel over the others to convert the pasture (depending on your approach), work in the woods, and do general landscaping - in large part because of the HST.

Yes, that's high for a 60" MMM. In fact, based on the Kioti prices I saw fairly recently, all the pricing, except the rear mower, seems high. I bought my Kubota (with more HP) for less than that.

The dealer's comment on MMM vs rear mowers is just one man's opinion. I use a rear mower and like it, but I'd be just as happy with a MMM under other circumstances. Perhaps more so in some regards. You need to consider whether you want to use the tractor without the mower attached, what kind of clearances you have with it attached and if that matters to you, how you'll deal with trees, odd corners, etc. in your mowing area, etc. $1000 for a rear mower actually seems low even for a value brand. What is it?

I'd widen the search to other brands and even other types of tractors. Take a look at Kubota, New Holland, Case/Farmall, the JD 10-series, and other types like the Power Trac. At least you'll know you made the right decision, no matter what it is. Test drive them all, it really makes a difference.

... I just realized, after posting, that this duplicates your thread in another area. There's no need to cross-post - most check on new posts no matter where they appear.

Skitch · Jun 30, 2004

I concur with SteveH_CT. The seat time in each will ultimately make your decision. I would not let cost be your only deciding factor. As so many before me mentioned, your relationship with the dealer, parts availability, and general "feel" of the tractor should also be considered. Honestly, I can't compare the two outright since I haven't driven either one. However, I know there are some here that probably have (KiotiJohn?)

As for the MMM vs. RFM, do you have a preference of one over the other? Do you think that you will have lots of trees and landscaping to mow around? Does the portion of land that is/was a hayfield have lots of rough ground? You don't have to answer these questions, but thinking about them may solidify which one will work best for you. I don't think there are many here that would offer a hard and fast rule, just preferences based on experience. I've used both the MMM and RFM, and I prefer the RFM. That's just my preference.

As for posting this on the Kioti forum, I naturally have to assume that you are leaning towards the Kioti. From a soon-to-be Kioti owner, know that you would be making a wise choice. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bob_In_MN · Jun 30, 2004

Well--I posted in the other thread you have going on this, but your specific comparison of Kioti to JD got me thinking.

Kioti

21 HP (15.5 of which is available at the PTO)
1993 LBS
More robust hyd system

JD 2210
23 HP (17.7 of which is available at the PTO)
1400 LBS
Limited Cat 1 3 point.

If my only options were the Kioti/JD models you mention, I'd opt for the ligher mowing machine (since 75% of what you are planning is mowing). If it was 50/50 mowing and dirt work, I'd opt for the Kioti. Try to envision what you will do besides lawn mowing. Will you be doing a lot of PTO intensive work (using a tiller to break ground)? That may push you towards the 2210 (with more PTO HP). Is the other 25% of your work going to be heavy ground moving work? If so, maybe the Kioti is the way to go.

I have slightly over 7 acres that I maintain and I purchased a JD 4010. In my mind, if you put the CK20 on one side and the JD 2210 on the other, my 4010 would be somewhere in the middle. While it has less HP than either, its FEL and 3PT capabilities are higher than the 2210 (but not as high as the CK20). It has a true Cat 1. I pull a 5 foot boxblade to maintain my 500 foot gravel driveway. I've used this machine to relocate my driveway and while a bigger tractor would have been nice for that one project, now it's lawn mowing, driveway maintainence and occasional material handling.

Either machine will work well for you. My only reason for suggesting going lighter is my experience with my 4010 (roughly the same weight as the 2210) and the damage I've done to my lawn.

Also--no matter which you buy, look ahead to what your lawn will look like. I would not trade my MMM for an RFM--it really adds length to the tractor and would not work given my trees and other obstacles. Also--after recently purchasing a pull behind vacuum I was trying to figure out how I would pull it if I had a rear mower. I'm sure I could rig something up, but it would be really long at that point.

Anyway--like I said--both are capable machines, but they really do excel at different things.

Good luck.

Bob

Bob_Skurka · Jun 30, 2004

I own Kubota, New Holland, Ventrac, Cub Cadet & I restore the occasional Oliver tractor so I don't have any vested interest in either brand. Let me give you my opinion.

The mini-JD 2210 is going to be the better lawn mowing machine but from what I hear it has a "limited" cat 1 3pt hitch. Also ground clearance is going to be limited on the 2210 because it is a sub-CUT sized machine, it is low to the ground.

The CK20 is much more of a tractor, unless I am misinformed, it is sized larger in most all ways than the 2210. Ground clearance will be about double. The FEL set up is second best in the industry for up front visibility because of the curved loader arm design. The capacities of everything are likely to be larger. The weight of the machine makes it somewhat less suitable for mowing, but it is still a fairly small tractor and if you stay off the wet spots and out of 4wd while mowing corners you should not have any real problems. Price of the MMM seems high, price of the RFM seems low (unless it is a junky unit, which it might be? Quality RFM's in the 60" size can push $2000. Also, for a frame of pricing reference, I purchased a NH 914A MMM for $2200 about 3 weeks ago, that price included installation.)

Given the minor price difference and the added features, I would always choose the CK20 over the LB1914.

Given the tasks you lay out, the CK20 is likely to be better suited for many of the tasks, however for mowing I would give the nod to the JD 2210.

You need to determine the % of time you will spend mowing versus the % of time you spend doing other things. You also need to look at that for THIS year, for 3 YEARS out and again for 5+ YEARS out. It is very likely that in the onset you will do more "landscape construction" type jobs and as time continues you will do more "lawn maintainence" type jobs. So if you start out and mowing is 40% of your tractor time and that grows to 75-80% of your tractoring, then you might be happier with the JD. If you always forsee more "tractoring" jobs in front of you, such that it remains 30-50% of your time, then you might be happier with the Kioti. Lighter is better for grass cutting, heavier is better for dirt work.

Other MAJOR considerations should be the dealership, its parts department, and its service department.

I think your tractor choices are not fair comparisions, the JD 2210 is much more similar to a BX Kubota, GC Massey or TZ New Holland. The CK20 is very similar to a NH TC21 or Kubota B7500.

KiotiJohn · Jun 30, 2004

The Kioti LB1914 is not a comparable tractor to the sub CUT JD2210, nor is the CK20. They are both small CUTs. Any one of these tractors will do what you want to do, the Kioti models, while heavier, are not that bad on my turf with industrial tires. The MMM price of the Kioti is just too high. The price for the RFM sounds more like the price for a rotary cutter, not a finish mower. $13K for the CK20 and loader is about right. The LB1914 does not have a mid PTO, so the same mower options cannot apply as you say. My suggestion is for you to go to both sites (if you can get into Kiotitractor.com), look at the specs for yourself instead of relying on what a dealer is mistakenly telling you. If you want to compare CK20 with JD, use the 4110, much closer. Kubota B7510 or B7510 are close to the CK20. I have forgotten a lot of what the other tractors have now that I have had my CK20HST since last January. It's best, in my opinion for you to do some reading on each tractor you're interested in. By far, out of the three, I would once again opt for the CK20, just as I did when I researched and tried all the tractors I did. John

RedDog · Jun 30, 2004

As far as the mowing, I'm going against what the others have been saying about the Deere being better.

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between which machine mowed what area. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RedDog

MikePA · Jul 1, 2004

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between which machine mowed what area. 
Until the tractors got close to the low area and the heavier CK20 started leaving tire tracks before the JD2210 did. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bob_Skurka · Jul 1, 2004

( I'm willing to bet you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between which machine mowed what area. 
Until the tractors got close to the low area and the heavier CK20 started leaving tire tracks before the JD2210 did. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

 Or you were up close and personal to a house, or landscaping and the slighly smaller turning radius of the 2210 allowed you to follow the landscaping while the slightly larger would require you to back up and realign.

The quality of the acutal cut would depend more on the quality of the deck. I loosly described the JD as a better mowing machine because of a variety of reasons with things like weight and manuverability being two components. Height is a third because the taller tractor will likely hit the branches of your wife's new dwarf ornamentals. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Not that I would know about that!

shoppintractors · Jul 1, 2004

Until the tractors got close to the low area and the heavier CK20 started leaving tire tracks before the JD2210 did. 

But then again, the smaller tires of the 2210 probably would loose traction, spin the tires and pull all the grass out......while the larger tires of the CK20 would just motor on through. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bob_Skurka · Jul 1, 2004

( Until the tractors got close to the low area and the heavier CK20 started leaving tire tracks before the JD2210 did. 

But then again, the smaller tires of the 2210 probably would loose traction, spin the tires and pull all the grass out......while the larger tires of the CK20 would just motor on through. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

The smaller tires of the 2210 MIGHT lose traction in the low area IF the climb back out IS steep; however I question how much smaller the tires really are. The front tire of a 30hp medium frame Kubota B2910 is identical in size to the front tire of a 24hp small frame NH TC24, but the rear tires are different sizes (but not by much).

Certainly the choice of tires might also affect traction. I would suspect that if both tractors had R4s on them, then there would not be any real traction issues involved with mowing any typical piece of rolling property, regardless of high or low. But low does generally get soft after rains and that would be an issue for a heavier tractor when mowing.

But again, if the main functions are going to be landscape construction, with some mowing, then I would pick the Kioti in this battle. However, if the main function of the machine is landscape construction, then the CK20 should be matched up with a Kubota 7510, a JD4010, or NH TC21.

And if the main functions are going to be mowing, with some landscape work, then the 2210 should be compared to the BX Kubotas, the GC Masseys and the TZ New Hollands.

Yankee · Jul 1, 2004

"... the smaller tires of the 2210 probably would loose traction ..."

Well then, why not just go for broke and get a 100 HP tractor with batwing decks? Sure would cut down on the turns, and I'm pretty certain it would power right through those low spots. Hey, you could even get extra-wide, extra-soft, high-flotation tires! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I suggest going to the dealerships and spinning a few turns on THEIR grass, with the tires you think you want, and see what happens. Keep in mind the tighter turn radii you need on your property and mark them out somehow before you test. That's what I did, and found, like some others have mentioned elsewhere, that turfs can cut on the tighter turns, but otherwise mark the least (if not spun), followed by R4s, then ags. There was essentially no difference on the straightaways. It helped that several dealers had the same models on their lots with different tires. You might find, though, that one of the tractors you're interested in gives very different results from what I experienced, and there's lots of reasons why this might happen.

By the way, powering through a spot where another tractor might be spinning its tires doesn't automatically mean without digging in. That's better than getting stuck, but if the primary concern is marking and rutting, the best thing to do is stay out of the soft areas with any heavy equipment and mow with a push mower, rather than trying to guess in advance what -might- happen.

RedDog · Jul 1, 2004

If I took both the Kioti and Deere to my house with the same tire setup and mower setup for each brand and mowed my front yard with each tractor. I'll guarantee you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

That amount of weight difference will not show in my yard at all. I guess I'm going to have to take a picture of my front yard since I mow it with a heavy tractor (DK65). /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

RedDog

DK35vince · Jul 1, 2004

( That amount of weight difference will not show in my yard at all. I guess I'm going to have to take a picture of my front yard since I mow it with a heavy tractor (DK65). )

I agree.
I mow my lawn with a DK 35

blakesfav · Jul 1, 2004

I recently purchased a Kubota B7610 with MMM and FEL. At this point, I'm wishing I had a RFM instead - the MMM is very vulnerable during FEL work, and if the ground is muddy the top of the mower gets caked in mud from the front tires. I think the RFM would be a better choice if you're planning on doing a lot of FEL work. If you don't plan to use the loader very often, the MMM is easy to mow with, cuts well, and may be a better choice. By the way, I narrowed my tractor choices down the the CK20 and the 7610 - either would have been a good choice. I would reccomend avoiding the sub-cut class of tractor alltogether - my personal opinion.

JoshJ · Jul 2, 2004

RFM vs MMM:
This may be a restatement, but if you are going to be mowing around a lot of trees and what not, i would go with a MMM. I used a RFM for about 4 days and couldnt stand it. It swings out opposite of the way you turn, and I mowed around some trees in reverse b/c it was the only way i could get close to them. Also, if your mower is the same width as your tractor, and if you have any fences/landscaping that follows a straight line, it can be a pain on the first pass b/c either ur front end or ur mower will have to swing into the fence/landscaping to turn away from it. Neither of these things are problems with a MMM.

Keep in mind this is just my personal advice, and maybe i havent spent enough time on a RFM to figure it out all of the way? But MMM's are definitely easier to use.

GerardC · Jul 2, 2004

IMHO I think that the mowing should be done with a lawn or garden tractor. I've been doing it this way for 4+ years now and never worry about how close I can get to something. Also, they're comparable in cost to a MMM or RFM. G