KL120 Loader Flexing

KiotiJohn · Apr 9, 2006

( Sure, there could be plenty of benefits from having a tooth bar, but if the loader was not designed to handle that type of stress, adding a tooth bar then is nothing more than abuse. For some reason I doubt that any manufacturer just 'forgot' to offer a tooth bar. I'd be interested to see if Kioti offers a tooth bar from the factory or if any other manufacturers do. )
I've never seen a MFG-offered toothbar. I can easily see, and have thought about, your point.

Someone using the loader, without a toothbar, at the corner, tyring to dig out something as though using a backhoe, could also bring about the damage if that's what caused it, but with a toothbar, the stresses are brought further forward which could make damage more likely.

No, I don't think any of the compact loaders are really designed for a toothbar, just normal loading 2" 4" down, but I'm sure keeping mine, and will continue to "try" not to use it incorrectly at the corners.

John

Donnyj · Apr 9, 2006

It was just a joke. Hence the smiley face. How about this though. Most tractors come with a QA plate. Does that mean there can only be a certain QA attachment installed? How about a bigger bucket? How about a bigger bucket with teeth? Kind of a grey area there. Tractor comes stock with a 72" bucket. Put on a 84" bucket with teeth and something happens to the loader. Nothing says I can't put any QA attachment on. Either way, the loader should not crack like his did. Just food for thought.

Dargo · Apr 9, 2006

Although it's a completely different discussion, based on apparent factory recommendations and designs, most people use a tooth bar to try to get too small of a tractor to do too large of a job instead of just buying the right tool for the right job. I'm a fine one to talk though. I went through about a dozen tractors before I bought the right size. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Also, size is relative to the job you are doing. To some people, my equipment is small. However, your CK20 is smaller and has less power than my smallest zero turn radius mower. Each tool has it's job.

Again, perhaps Kioti does have some design and metal issues as some suggest since it doesn't seem as if other tractor manufacturers are having problems with their loaders breaking while over-stressing them with tooth bars. I tend to think that Kioti loaders are likely performing to the standards they were designed to handle. Maybe some will take a tremendous amount more than their designed use, maybe not.

Although others will disagree, I wouldn't buy a tractor if it had a tooth bar on it. Since every educated dealer I've spoken with has told me that their manufacturers will not make them since the loaders are Front End Loaders, not a back hoe or a front hoe. I would expect a loader with a tooth bar installed to be sloppy as compared to one without. I've only had tooth bars on high lift dozers that were designed to have them and came from the factory with them. I've never felt the need to add an after market tooth bar to any of my loaders. But, hey, I wash, wax, grease my tractors and they never sit outside overnight. Some people just use their tractors differently than others. I'm just not real keen on blaming Kioti yet for what appears (no proof yet) to be excessive slop in their loaders.

Glen_Ippolito · Apr 9, 2006

Well said Dargo. I agree Frontend loaders where not designed to have toothbar's on them.

Glen_Ippolito · Apr 9, 2006

How many companies make tooth bars for their front end loaders from the factory? Dargo makes a great point. I don't know of any do you ? I think all the problems hear are from toothbar's not loader failure. Like Dargo said get the correct tool for the job.

Thanks

Maybe there are some made from a tractor manufacturer for their FEL's, but I just have not seen them. In essence, by adding a tooth bar to a Front End Loader, you are trying to get it to do something for which it was not designed. If the engineers thought from all their R&D that it be able to take such abuse, don't you think they would add the option to add the tooth bar direct from the factory? Wouldn't it be a big sales tool to be able to brag that your brand tractor is the only one that has the option to come with a tooth bar from the factory? Again, maybe some manufacturer does and I just don't know about them.

I would think that Kioti or any other manufacturer could easily deny a warranty claim on any crack, fracture, or break in the FEL due to abuse if there is evidence that a tooth bar has been on the bucket. I do not think that Kioti (or any other manufacturer who does not make a tooth bar for their buckets) would be in the wrong at all to deny coverage. I'm not wishing the worst for Highbeam, only looking at facts. A lot here has been Kioti vs other manufacturers. Are there broken FEL's from Kioti where a tooth bar has not been used?

Sure, there could be plenty of benefits from having a tooth bar, but if the loader was not designed to handle that type of stress, adding a tooth bar then is nothing more than abuse. For some reason I doubt that any manufacturer just 'forgot' to offer a tooth bar. I'd be interested to see if Kioti offers a tooth bar from the factory or if any other manufacturers do.

Rap is to music what etch a sketch is to art

Bob_Skurka · Apr 9, 2006

( Sure, there could be plenty of benefits from having a tooth bar, but if the loader was not designed to handle that type of stress, adding a tooth bar then is nothing more than abuse.)

Glen & Dargo both made the above point, but I would have to argue with it. It strikes me that a tootbar might actually REDUCE the stress the loader incurs because it makes digging into compacted piles EASIER by breaking up the dirt. Pushing the leading edge of a FEL bucket into a pile of dirt is much harder than pushing a FEL with a Toothbar into the same pile.

Further, both of my owners manuals, in addition to the JD manuals I have read, show that FELs are capable of digging into the ground. No doubt they are terrible at it, but it can be done and the manuals actually show how to do it.

I don't see much difference between prying a tree root out of the ground with a toothbar or the front edge of a bucket, or the front edge of a grapple bucket, or a rock bucket. Its a front edge, just a different shape. And if you can get under it with the lip of the bucket then you are going to incure the same type of stress on the loader arms in any case.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you guys are nuts /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Heck if you think about it, the farther away from the pivot point you are, the less capable your loader is, consequently a toothbar with 4" teeth may actually offer slighly less force than a bucket edge. The real difference will be that the toothbar breaks up soil, grass, etc easier. If I was denied a warrenty based on a toothbar then I would likely have my lawyer involved very quickly.

JMHO

KiotiJohn · Apr 9, 2006

Bob, I think you failed to realize that we're talking mostly of uneven stresses caused by using the toothbar at one side or the other more than straight across.

You're always big on talking about reduced lift etc. farther from the pivot, and I would think it would be clear that prying up roots with one side, that far in front of the mounts, would be more stressful.

I agree that if using the toothbar evenly, there probably isn't much difference.
John

Steve_Miller · Apr 9, 2006

I'm trying to say that I don't think that this is a "Kioti thing". I would like someone to prove me wrong. You know, show me a broken Kioti loader that didn't have a tooth bar installed. 

Believe it or not, my loader didn't have the toothbar on it til this winter and I have yet to use the loader with the toothbar on it. I agree with you that the FEL was designed to function without a toothbar, welded on grab hooks, receiver hitches or anything else people have done to modify the loader. I'm not worried about the cracking, I just brought it up so that everyone that's interested could use the info in their own way.
My Toothbar

Steve

albmn10 · Apr 9, 2006

I agree with Kioti John here, putting a toothbar and prying on the loaders edge for stumps and roots and such will put a greater degree of twist in the loader frame.. I also feel that implying that the kioti metal is not as strong as other brands is simply wrong and not the case here. Any time a new model tractor in any brand comes out, their will be adjustments made to correct design flaws discoverd in the first years of applications.. In case in point i was interested in the kubota b3030 and that model has been plagued with loader design problems, vibration problems, the bh75 and bh90 backhoes have had many defects and bending problems.. Is that to say Kubotas metal is defective or weak? I think not, its just a case of engineering problems that need to be tweaked, its just part of the problem with new designs.. Ive also read reports of New hollands loaders cracking and even frames breaking. So youll find these issues in any brand of tractors.. Instead the cause here in my opinon is simply Kioti tried a new design in their loaders to protect the hydrolic lines by keeping them inside the frame. They just didnt make the plate heavy enough to take the twisting forces exherted by some users, perhaps using toothbars. Yet they seem to have addressed the problem and reinforced the new loaders in this area... The metal in the stress cracks was obviously very thin and has nothing to do with the strenth of the steel.

Dargo · Apr 9, 2006

/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Are you going to make me stand corrupted; er, corrected? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Still, did you notice any additional flex lately? You're right, any adds onto the FEL are considered "no-no's". The chief tech at my local JD place seemed to notice that he saw more issues with people adding the tooth bars. Many years ago he is who talked me out of ever getting one. Since then, I have had Kubota and CNH reps tell me that they strongly advised against tooth bars.

I'm going to put the thumb screws and bright lights to Bob. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I have good information on where his attorney went to school and, I have a good source who claims that Bob's attorney did actually drop the bar of soap. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif