kubota/kioti backhoe question

[deerhunter1]

I am looking at either a kioti or kubota tractor with a backhoe. my question is, the kubota back hoe uses the tractor seat but the kioti backhoe has it's own seat. is there any advantages/disadvatages between the 2 types?

 

[dfkrug]

Tractors that are designed to be well-integrated with a backhoe (aka
TLBs) will generally use the same seat, which is swiveled or tipped over
to switch positions. The same seat is used because the hoe is installed
very close in to the back of the tractor. For other tractors with
backhoe attachments (even with subframes), a second seat is used
because the hoe builder makes their attachment for a variety of machines.
In the first case (TLBs), you have only one hoe that will fit the tractor.

A TLB does do a better job digging, vs a same size/weight general purpose
tractor with a hoe attachment.

 

[IslandTractor]

All of the third party backhoes like Woods, Rhino etc come with their own seat. Most tractors made by Kubota use the backhoe seat rather than an integrated dual purpose seat. The exceptions that I know about for Kubota are the BX23/24/25 lineup and the true TLBs B26 L39 M59 etc. To my knowledge none of the other L class, B class or M class Kubotas have swiveling dual purpose seats. Someone may correct me.

I don't know if any of the older Kioti's had dual purpose seats but all of the CK and DK class tractors produced now would use a separate seat on the backhoe.

TLBs may do a better job digging but usually because they mount larger backhoes not for any other reason. The trade off is that they give up 3pt flexibility (usually) and sometimes PTO power. They also tend to be made with non removable FELs though that varies.

Bottom line is that if something is built as a TLB rather than as a CUT then it is reasonable to use a dual purpose seat. Most CUTs are designed as tractors first and therefore things like fuel tanks, tool boxes or 3PT apparatus gets in the way of using a swivel seat. I don't see the advantage of the swivel seat myself.

 

[dfkrug]

TLBs may do a better job digging but usually because they mount larger backhoes not for any other reason. The trade off is that they give up 3pt flexibility (usually) and sometimes PTO power.

The TLBs that use only one seat are better diggers vs an equivalent
weight/size non-integrated tractor/hoe is because they have a closer-
coupled hoe to the center-of-gravity of the tractor. They use a more
substantial mounting frame and attachment, too. Also better departure
angle for ground clearance. Incidentally, the TLBs also have more hyd
flow available to the hoe. Again, I stated that the sizes and weights
matched for comparison purposes.

As for the ergonomics of a single seat, I found it to be of no value on my
B21, since you had to fully dismount the tractor to rotate and move it.
On a Case 580, however, the swivel action is very useful and productive.
The JD 110 flops over, and I gotta wonder how well that works, but I have
no experience there.

True, the 580 has no 3-pt, but the JD110, B26, L45, etc, all have 3-pts.

 

[deerhunter1]

so the differences are not signifigant. thank you for your help. any preference to one brand or the other on the small compact tractors?

 

[CurlyDave]

The JD 110 flops over, and I gotta wonder how well that works, but I have
no experience there.

It is crowded, cramped and awkward, but it beats dismounting and re-mounting in the other seat.

so the differences are not signifigant

I think there is a significant difference, at least in a few. I know my JD 110 allows operation of the tractor from the backhoe position of the seat. I haven't seen them up close, but I think the M59 and maybe even the M43 from Kubota both offer this feature as well. On the L39s, it was possible to turn around in the seat and diddle the throttle with a cane (I don't recommend this, but there are TBN threads on it.

Do not underestimate the convenience of this feature. I once trenched over 100' through the woods, on fairly steep hill without ever getting out of the seat.

Another difference is that with a "real" TLB it is common to pick up the back of the machine by pushing down with the hoe bucket. This is very useful for repositioning the machine, or for crossing a trench. I don't have any experience with the add-on hoes but I am skeptical that this would be a recommended maneuver.

 

[Gittyup]

I don't doubt that true TLB's are better at what they do and have some conveniences and advantages. But, I just want to add that I can reach the throttle from my frame-mount hoe seat, and if I leave the loader up I can lift the tractor with the hoe and push it forward. While the tractor seems to do this with ease, I don't do it as a matter of practice and do agree it's probably not good for the equipment, especially with a tractor as heavy as mine. But, it will do it.

What I found was that machines like the B26 and L39 were several thousand more $ than my Kioti TLB setup. And since I mainly was looking for the best performing backhoe/loader for the money, the Kioti really stood out as "better" than all the rest in it's size (30 hp or less). But, was I ever drooling over that L39. Just couldn't swing the price.

 

[Carl_NH]

Echoing the other responses there are significant differences - I have had both types.

Ground Clearance - TLB's have more due to the integrated frame vs subframe attached

Ease of Use - As stated due to the close coupled seat and controls you can move FWD/REV to reposition without gettting off the BH and on the two seat units the controls are typically out of reach.

(No Offense dfkrug -I have the B21 and 6'3" and while off/on is typical I can swivel the seat w/o getting off as well move the unit around with the F/R hydro controls from the BH position - my arms are 36" tho)

Postives to the dedicated TLB units - more capabilty lift/digging pound/pound, higher flow Hyd, higher cooling and hydraulic capacity, ground clearance, manueverabilty, R&R of the BH, shorter O/A length, ROPS with Rigid canopy or cab.

Negatives to the dedicated TLB - Fixed mount FEL, no MM mower, Fixed ROPS and canopy (need 8'+ clearance doors) - none others that I can think of..

Regarding Kioti I dont know enough about their specific models to comment tho I am sure there are plenty here that can.

At the end of the day it depends on what you need and will do with the unit that should drive your decision.

 

[dfkrug]

On the L39s, it was possible to turn around in the seat and diddle the throttle with a cane (I don't recommend this, but there are TBN threads on it.

Do not underestimate the convenience of this feature. I once trenched over 100' through the woods, on fairly steep hill without ever getting out of the seat.

Another difference is that with a "real" TLB it is common to pick up the back of the machine by pushing down with the hoe bucket. This is very useful for repositioning the machine, or for crossing a trench. I don't have any experience with the add-on hoes but I am skeptical that this would be a recommended maneuver.

For the L39 (no HST), you don't have the FWD and REV pedals that HSTs
have. I use a rod to reach the pedals to move an HST tractor when
trenching.

You bring up an additional TLB advantage, Dave. The engine speed control
for the integrated TLBs is usually near the right fender, accessible while
driving OR operating the hoe. This is such a useful feature that I moved
the control from the dash to the rt of the seat on my Kioti.

You made another good pt, which I agree with: the integrated TLBs have
so much better hoe subframes (mainframes) that repositioning the whole
tractor with the hoe is less likely to hurt the tractor. I have tried it with
hoe attachments that use subframes and I get more flex than I did with
my B21.

 

[Patches]

I am looking at either a kioti or kubota tractor with a backhoe. my question is, the kubota back hoe uses the tractor seat but the kioti backhoe has it's own seat. is there any advantages/disadvatages between the 2 types?

You should look at the LK30 TLB Kioti in your travels. 30HP, 12.5GPM hydraulic flow, a tightly mounted backhoe,(easily removable) and 3PH/PTO capabilities. The major drawback to this machine, for some, is no HST available

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

All of the third party backhoes like Woods, Rhino etc come with their own seat.

Not true, depends on the tractor they are being mounted on. Woods hoes for the B2320-B2920, BX's,NH TZ's, etc use the tractor seat.

Most tractors made by Kubota use the backhoe seat rather than an integrated dual purpose seat. The exceptions that I know about for Kubota are the BX23/24/25 lineup and the true TLBs B26 L39 M59 etc. To my knowledge none of the other L class, B class or M class Kubotas have swiveling dual purpose seats. Someone may correct me..

B2320, B2620,B2920 use the tractor. There is a definate trends towards using 1 seat on the compacts. This is part of the reason why over half of the industrial TLB's are sold for residential use.

If your leaving the backhoe on a lot, its tighter to the tractor and balances better when its closer to the tractor. On some of these B-series machines you can hardly tell that backhoe is back there since is a solid 2 feet closer to the machine than if there was a seat.

 

[MilesToEmpty]

We have a Kubota L3130 and its great. Sometime we wish it had a few more ponies.

Its a quiet machine, and the backhoe is amazing. We ahve the BH90 hoe on it and it does everything we could ever want... And teh best part about it, is how fast you can take it off. I think the best I ever managed was 3 minutes.

Drop the feet, lower the arms. Pick it up, pull the pins. Let it tip down. Push down with teh stabilizers, scoot tractor forward a few inches if needed. Disconnect the 2 lines, and drive away.

 

[art]

You should look at the LK30 TLB Kioti in your travels. 30HP, 12.5GPM hydraulic flow, a tightly mounted backhoe,(easily removable) and 3PH/PTO capabilities. The major drawback to this machine, for some, is no HST available

No hydro on a tlb machine, naw! 12.5 gpm system is smaller then a B-21 kubota, doesn't sound like much of a system.
You might get the same value out of some makes used units as some brands new.

 

[MikeInEburg]

I have Kubota B7800 w/BH75A that uses second seat. Reality is that the backhoe operator's station is really not built for a large person (which, fortunately, I'm not) - especially if you've got the front end of the tractor facing uphill. I imagine that the single-seat version would provide a bit more leg room.

Also - Kioti is reported to be a bit heavier which can translate into a slightly more stable working platform while digging.

That said, my combo does exactly what I expected and works like a champ.

Mike

 

[newbury]

The JD 110 flops over, and I gotta wonder how well that works, but I have
no experience there.

It is crowded, cramped and awkward, but it beats dismounting and re-mounting in the other seat.

<snip>.

I can just envision the gymanstics required to stay in the seat as you flop it over. I know I'm too old to do it!
With my B7610 I:
Undo seat belt
Stand up
Grab onto ROPS
Step on rear tire
Step to BH platform,
Sit down, fasten seat belt.

Flippin' JD110 seat from OMLVU13606_H3

 

[dfkrug]

I can just envision the gymanstics required to stay in the seat as you flop it over. I know I'm too old to do it!
With my B7610 I:
Undo seat belt
Stand up
Grab onto ROPS
Step on rear tire
Step to BH platform,
Sit down, fasten seat belt.

That is pretty much it. I performed those gymnastics on a new unit at the
Ag Expo, so I guess I have a tiny bit of experience. But living with it like
CURLY does, THAT is the real experience.

(seat belt?)

 

[LarryRB]

Most of you are missing the real difference between a true backhoe and add on hoe,,,, the true one, such as jd110 KL48-m59, Yanmar cbl40 and others, all have a third pump for swing, Same as the big boys, All add on hoes do not have this,, By add on, I mean with it's own seat. To my knowledge Kioti has never made a true backhoe just add on ones.. I asked them this many years ago along with mahindra and neither had an interest in making such a machine and therefore the reason I went with a L48.. The differences are quite significant. A mahandra I once had, had a 7 point something pump, I think it was 11 counting the hydro steering section also.,.. Kioti had those same numbers then and probably has the same or close today. A L 48 has 26 GPM, a Deere 110 about 23 GPM vs the say 5 to 11 gpm that is the norm. Also watch carefully the crowd, bucket, and dipper forces,, There is a significant difference again between a tlb and an add on hoe.

 

[JoelD]

You should look at the LK30 TLB Kioti in your travels. 30HP, 12.5GPM hydraulic flow, a tightly mounted backhoe,(easily removable) and 3PH/PTO capabilities. The major drawback to this machine, for some, is no HST available

I've got the lk3054xs tlb. The backhoe is very well integrated. The hoe digs as hard as any hoe I've used, not as hard as the CAT 311 excavator I rented, but plenty hard as compared to any other 7-1/2 foot hoe I'd imagine. The flow rate is adequate and I'm not wanting for additional speed.

The frame mount is about as good as any I've seen, one lever on and off and high and tight to the machine makes for excellent ground clearance and trailer mounting.

I am very happy with my machine.

I am a fan of the four point mount on mine, much like the Kubota set up, nice and tight to the machine.

Joel

 

[dfkrug]

....all have a third pump for swing, Same as the big boys....

The B21 or B26 are clearly integrated TLBs, and they do not have a 3rd
hyd pump for swing control. Of course, other TLBs do, as far as I know.
L39/45, M59, to add to your list. No one doubts that these TLBs do a
better job of digging (in the same size/weight class) than CUTs with add-on
hoes. However, I am sure that an L3240 w/BH90 will dig deeper, harder,
and faster than a b21.

As for the LK3054 (LK30)...it was sold as more than just a CUT with add-on
hoe, but less than a commercial TLB. Its hoe, the 2376, fit only the LK
and no other tractors, and it is more robust than the 2375, which is the
add-on for the other Kiotis. (Now 2475). No separate seat, and no separate
swing pump, but hyd flow is prob in the 8GPM range (tho it is hard to get
Kioti specs on implement pump flow that does NOT incl the PS flow). The
B21 has about 8.3GPM avail for its hoe, but the tractor is only 2000#. The
LK is about 3000# naked, as I recall. Different beasts.

 

[JoelD]

Most of you are missing the real difference between a true backhoe and add on hoe,,,, the true one, such as jd110 KL48-m59, Yanmar cbl40 and others, all have a third pump for swing, Same as the big boys, All add on hoes do not have this,, By add on, I mean with it's own seat. To my knowledge Kioti has never made a true backhoe just add on ones.. I asked them this many years ago along with mahindra and neither had an interest in making such a machine and therefore the reason I went with a L48.. The differences are quite significant. A mahandra I once had, had a 7 point something pump, I think it was 11 counting the hydro steering section also.,.. Kioti had those same numbers then and probably has the same or close today. A L 48 has 26 GPM, a Deere 110 about 23 GPM vs the say 5 to 11 gpm that is the norm. Also watch carefully the crowd, bucket, and dipper forces,, There is a significant difference again between a tlb and an add on hoe.

I'm thinking this is more the point, commercial machines versus essentially homeowner / non-commercial.

Can't compare a L39 or L48 or JD 110 to a Kioti or Kubota BX series or the like, just apples and oranges. To me, there are almost three / four flavors. Commercial as noted above. What I call four point mounts, like BX 24 or BX 25, my LK etc. Then the mounts with the frame rail that run under the machine and the backhoe is mounted a little further back than what I'm calling four point mount. Then three point mount, which is not realy connected to frame at all.

If I was digging commercially for a living I'd go with B26 or L39 or L48 or JD 110 or the like. I would expect machines like that could run hammers and such if need be and are just built for some heavier work.

For a homeowner like me or many others, I would not expect to exercise a machine like that all that much and for the savings in cost, my machine is more than adequate.

Joel