L2501: Hydraulic Skidding Winch Build

[100 td]

Regarding the referenced "device". I find it most amusing that in the first "check point" of the description of features there is the phrase "when the winch works".....
Gotta wonder about a $240 piece of equipment that may be called on to do the job of a $2400 unit.

As always you can read or cut to suit, as it tells you - when the winch works, 4 Way roller fairlead to guide the rope onto the drum evenly.
No idea on the quality, I stated "Electric 12000lb winches start cheap, if they are suitable", I didn't say buy one, and there are many others. I'm not assuming a $240 dollar winch can do the job of a $2400 one, although it's possible they may.

 

[CalG]

100 td

my poke is at the device, not at you. Unless you are the one making them and passing them off as real goods. ;-)
and I don't think you would do that...

 

[Jim Timber]

Ok after some thinking and considering the thoughts of people here on the forum and on another forestry forum, i think i'm going to go with hydraulic. I know my tractor will be slow with the hydraulic motor. But the safety aspect, keeps me thinking. Everyone seems to think that 8000lb is enough for my tractor and after using my 3500lb electric to haul some wood this past week, i think 8000lb is more than enough. I am in the woods by myself so safety of me and the equipment is number one. Only using this for my own use and not trying to make any money using it.

So after running some number from a site i found about hydraulic motors on a motor i found available to me. I think i may be able to run around 6400lb at 33ft/min. Which if those number are somewhat correct, im find with that. Could someone with a little more hydraulic knowledge correct me if im wrong. Ill post the motor and website used for calculations below. The winch has a 4.8 in drum and 21:1 worm drive gear down.

2.2 cu. in. 4-Bolt Hydraulic Spool Valve Geroler Motor | Princess Auto

Hydraulic Motor Calculations - Womack Machine Supply Company

Okay, i dont know a big lot about hydraulics so, i could be very wrong with all of this. My tractors hydraulics are 5.15gpm @ 2205psi. So the motor above is only rated for 2030psi. So is this motor unuseable?
If so would this one work: 6.2 cu. in. 2-Bolt Hydraulic Spool Valve Geroler Motor | Princess Auto


Another question about hydraulics, if i did want to get more flow from my tractor could i run a hydraulic pump from a engine accessory belt and plumb into the current hydraulic system for increased flow?

Sorry for the long post, maybe none of this make any sense. Thanks, Nathan.

A topic about the build on a forestry forum: http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=101602.0

A couple things to note: First, your 2.2cu. in. motor will only see 1/4 of the flow it's rated at on your tractor's hydraulic system. It will only spin 1/4 the speed at the given max pressure, and it will not be moving very fast at all. If you're going to turn a worm-geared winch head via this motor, you might be PILOON's age by the time you reel in a load of logs. Turning a 10" lathe chuck at 300rpm is pretty "ho-hum" and when you look at the work being smaller, I'd hate to use anything that slow to pull a cable to haul logs. Low and slow is great for recovery winches, because they tend to be fighting the suction of the belly of a vehicle or suspension components hooked over obstacles. They need the super high torque of multiple gear reduction and the slow and steady tug a recovery winch is made to provide. You don't want a 4,000lb car going from 0-40 in a few seconds (or feet), but when you're hauling logs out of the bush, you want the log to get moving pronto!

To address your idea of adding an additional hydraulic pump to your existing infrastructure: this is a really, really, really bad idea! At first thought, it sounds so simple, right? Slap a bigger pump on and you get more flow and life is great. The problem is that all the lines, hoses, fittings, couplers, etc. are all sized for the meager output of the factory pump. What you're talking about doing is increasing the volume of fluid passing through the existing plumbing without increasing the carrying capacity of that network. With hydraulics, when you do this, you generate a lot of heat. So much heat that you can melt the fuel tanks, hoses, etc (it happened when a valve was sticky on JD 5055E's back in 2012-14: people's fuel tanks melted because they sit above the rear axle which also doubles as the hydraulic reservoir).

So if you wanted more hydraulic power, you can add the belt driven pump, but you would need to provide it with appropriately sized SCVs to run off of, and distribution plumbing from the pump to such valves and the return to tank, etc. I'm not even sure the factory pump suction inlet tubing would be able to handle another pump like that, but I am not a fluid-power engineer by any stretch.


Keep going on your project. We all start somewhere and we learn a lot as we go along on our personal quests to achieve whatever we happen to be trying to do.

 

[100 td]

I'm probably wrong with these calcs, so if someone wants to post the correct ones, I'll fix them, but I did a few calcs in my head and it looked fairly close so thought I'd put them on paper.
If his pump output is 5.15GPM from his tractor, and his motor is 12GPM for 1092 rpm, worm drive of 21:1, drum circumference of 4.8 x pi =15.07"
5.15GPM / 12GPM x 1092 = 468 RPM / 21 = 22.3 RPM x 15.07" = 336"PM = 28ft/m, so he was talking 33 ft/m, will 28ft/m do? Haven't looked at any power calcs, just speed. And of course I base this on published specs, I don't know if losses are compounded at lower flows for this motor.
EDIT: I'm also guessing he won't get his required load, but keen to find out if my calcs are ballpark?

 

[GigaRift]

Thanks guys for the thoughts and looks at the project. As I said I’m not a hydraulic experience, so all is questionable. I have seen others mount these winches and say the are stout and slow on the hydraulic motor. As 100 td, showed the calculations, it’s the same as I got around. According to the motor calculator website I used it should be able to produce the max torque output of the motor. Maybe a slower high torque motor will work better, if it was geared up, as im connecting it with chain. Any thoughts?

 

[Jim Timber]

What if you ran a PTO hydraulic pump and had a reservoir built into the winch base? You could get your flow way up there and not have any issues with the existing systems limitations while still retaining the advantages of hydraulic drive.

Seems like the pumps aren't overly pricey if memory serves.

This one's out of stock, but they'll get more: 7.62 cu in 16.6 GPM 54 RPM Dynamic GP-PTO-A-7-6-S Hydraulic PTO Pump | Dynamic | Brands | www.surpluscenter.com

 

[GigaRift]

I have thought about it, but I’m in Canada. So exchange rate and shipping is crazy. To get a pto pump here I’m looking at close 600 or more then with the motor and lines, I’ll be way over a thousand. I wish I could do that but, I think I would go pto with belt drive like snowblower engage instead

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Your tractor has a 5GPM pump AT THE PUMP!

It will NOT put out that much at the remotes, so be sure and take a magazine along to the woods, you are going to need it!

As for those cheapo electric winches, look at the "duty cycle" of them.... You will need a magazine for them too!

SR

 

[100 td]

Your tractor has a 5GPM pump AT THE PUMP!
It will NOT put out that much at the remotes.

If it's putting it out at the pump, it is the same at the remotes and the same at the return line to the tank, unless it's leaking on the ground somewhere!

 

[Sawyer Rob]

If it's putting it out at the pump, it is the same at the remotes and the same at the return line to the tank, unless it's leaking on the ground somewhere!

It just doesn't work that way... It has restrictions to get to the remotes so it's always less at the remotes.

SR