L4310 Enhancements

[MChalkley]

Sir King Rat Mark - So, did you find the photos?

MarkC

 

[Keoke]

Does anyone know the sources for a 4 in 1 bucket. Web sites or phone numbers?? Also approximatley how much will a 6 foot 4 in 1 bucket cost? Checked site out best I could and could not find manufactures or cost. Saw that "Long" makes them but could not find web site or phone number of that manufacture.

thanks again,
george

 

[JATO_RaT]

Yes I did Mark, great ideas you have, thanks for sharing them, Mark...

 

[JATO_RaT]

Gordon, so I didn't major in electronics for nothing then, sometimes I actually learn something in school. More often then not though, I read it, get tested and forget it. Rat...

 

[richh]

Keoke- Long's # 800-823-4570. cost about $2000- $2500. If you go look in the Archive's under tires/ 4in1 buckett, you can pick-up some more info. Photo enclosed.
Rich

 

[gordon]

Major in electronics and it took you five months to pick that one up your slipping./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I learned ohm's law and most other stuff at handlin school. Handlin school consists of---the boss gives me a job and says quite simply--handle it!!! Best school there is but you get no diploma its an ongoing thing I guess!/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

But seriously thanks for bringing up my typo just in case someone tries to do an electrical calculation, I kinda think it would be way off !!!
Gordon

 

[MChalkley]

This is a repost of my original "L4310 Enhancements" message from the old board, dated 11/19/99:

Well, I thought I would throw my latest round of modifications into cyberspace for general consumption (or regurgitation). It's not that I'm always unhappy, it's just that I'm always looking for ways to be happier...

Briefly, before the most recent round of modifications, my L4310HST had 1) a Long 4-in-1 bucket with electrically actuated solenoid valves connected to a thumb switch on the joystick to allow the rollback mode to clamp the jaw and the dump mode to open it when the thumb button is depressed 2) the Kubota triple remote valve setup controlling cylinders on the 3-point top and side links 3) Bradco backhoe with the hydraulics for it running to the back of the tractor via a hose which had to be connected to itself to complete the circuit when the backhoe wasn't attached 4) Kubota sunshade 5) stock R4 Titan 10-16.5 tires on the front and R4 Firestone 17.5LR24 radials on the rear, filled to 75% with water & methanol.

Things I didn't like or wanted to improve: 1) As I've mentioned in another post, I wasn't at all happy with the loader lift capacity. 2) I didn't like the always-hot hose running to the back with all my hydraulic flow running through it all the time. 3) I wanted a way to be able to use a rear implement with 2 cylinders on it without adding aftermarket valves to the fender. 4) I wasn't happy with the traction, or lack thereof. Even though I've constantly done things to improve it, like going to radials on the rear, it still just didn't seem as good as it should be.

In the past few weeks, I've worked on these issues with very satisfactory results. So here's what I did:

I had 2 2 1/2" cylinders made to replace the stock 2" cylinders. The difference is amazing. Lift speed is predictably slower, but not slow enough to bother me. On the plus side, when I push into a pile of gravel and pull down on the joystick with a full bucket of gravel, the bucket comes up instead of just sitting there thumbing its figurative nose at me. If I try to dig into a packed topsoil pile, no problem. A "hopefully unnecessary" disclaimer: If you try this at home folks, common sense always rules. If you do this, you have the ability to lift more than an insufficiently ballasted tractor is capable of carrying safely! And, by the way, of course, you never ever carry a load any higher off the ground than absolutely necessary. The heavier the load the more likely you find out why this is true if you don't. (BTW, does anybody need any 2" cylinders?)

To fix the backhoe hose problem, I cut into the Power Beyond hose running from the loader valve to the front hydraulic block and inserted a tee, a shut-off valve, and another tee into it. (Actually, I mounted an elbow to the hydraulic block, then the tee, valve, tee combination to it, followed by the original PB hose that used to run straight into the block. Then I ran 2 hoses from the extra port of the two tees to the back of the tractor and into the bottom 2 ports on the rear hydraulic quick-connect outlet block. Now, to use the backhoe, I just back up to it, hook up the hoses, and close the shut-off valve. This forces the Power Beyond pressure back to the backhoe. Otherwise, the valve remains open allowing the pressure to go straight to tank. (I can't take the credit for this solution. A hydraulics engineer came up with it.)

To allow me to control 2 additional rear cylinders (for a total of 5, not counting the backhoe), I put 4 compact electrically actuated solenoid valves on the rear of the tractor under the tray. The pressure port is fed from the right or left remote hydraulic valves, the non-actuated output port goes to the right or left 3-point hitch cylinder, and the actuated output port goes to the remote cylinder quick-connect block which the rear implement cylinders plub into. So, I can flip a toggle switch mounted beside the remote valves on and control the rear implement cylinders with the right and left valves or turn it back off and control the right and left 3-point hitch arms. The center remote valve still always controls the 3-point top link.

As far as traction goes, I felt I had to do something pretty radical. My tractor, when new, came with R4 tires which were not sized properly. I had a 1.5% lag condition, which caused severe power hop when 4WD was engaged on less than very soft surfaces and the loader bucket was full. The first time I experienced this, I think the bucking would have thrown me off the tractor if I had not had my seat belt on and the bucket had not been less than a foot off the ground (thus further confirmation of the wisdom of both of these policies). All the tire books will tell you that no amount of lag is ever acceptable. After calling the factory to find out the mechanical ratio between the front and rear axles, I started tire shopping. I finally settled on Michelin 19.5R24 XM27 tires for the rear, which are 2" inches taller and wider than the 17.5L24's. They are the biggest tires that will fit without fender modifications, which I definitely didn't want to get into. They are also the widest tires practical without going to higher offset wheels. They feature a very aggressive tread pattern very similar to high-traction ag designs but with R4 weight and thickness. They are also very high load capacity. I'm already sure I can run them as low as 9 psi with no problem, and I'm going to try running them at 6 psi once they wear in a bit. This obviously meant I had to go to larger front tires, so I went with 12-16.5 OTR Outrigger tires to give me the proper rolling circumference to give me a 4% lead condition, a little high but much better than the lag condition I had to begin with. The bigger front tires wouldn't fit on the stock wheels so I had OTR mount them on Titan wheels with an extra 1.5" of offset so they wouldn't rub the inside on the steering rod. I ballasted all the tires to 50% based on the knowledge I recently gained from this forum on liquid ballasting for optimum traction. I may add wheel weights later, if necessary. The result: Incredibly improved traction! I can now push into large-stone gravel piles that used to mean digging 4 holes in the dirt without hardly spinning at all. I expect further improvement when I fine tune the pressures some more.

The effort to create the perfect tractor (for me) continues. Film at eleven...


MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

This is a repost of "chapter 2" of my original "L4310 Enhancements" message on the old forum, dated 11/22/99:

Chapter 2 of my enhancements postings:

I also switched my hydraulic oil from Kubota Super UDT to Amsoil ATH SAE 30. Before doing so, I thought I would run a test to see what would happen to oil temperatures. I figured this would be the most meaningful measurement, since it doesn't take a tractor scienti... er, rocket scientist to figure out what that oil cooler gets stuck on the front of an HST tractor for.

I figured I could create an easily duplicated test: Assuming similar ambient temps, I would start the cold tractor, warm it up at 1200 rpm for 10 minutes. Then drive it in high range wide open at 2500 rpm the 1.2 miles to a pretty steep hill I have on my road, then climb the hill in high range with the HST pedal depressed as far as I could without the rpm dropping below 1500 rpm. Back down the hill, and repeat the climb three times. Measure the temperature of the oil line at the input side of the oil cooler with an infrared thermometer with a laser spotting sight at the top of the hill after the third ascent. Do the whole thing twice and average the temps.

Here's what I got: With Super UDT, the temperature was 146 degrees. With Amsoil synthetic, the temperature was 127 degrees. The ambient temperature was 7 degrees warmer when I tested the synthetic. Draw your own conclusions, if you have any desire to. I've drawn my own and am keeping them to myself so no one has anything to argue with me about. Your mileage may vary.

I also switched the front axle oil to Amsoil 75W-90. Does anybody else think it's strange that Kubota specs either 80W-90 gear or hydraulic oil in the front axle? Isn't that kind like saying "use axle grease or vegetable oil". I mean, they're not at all similar lubricants.

I reduced the pressures on my new tires to 20 psi front and 9 psi rear. I can now almost stall the engine out in low range at 1600 rpm before the tires will spin pushing into a gravel pile on hard packed gravel/soil base. Amazing difference in traction. When those rear radials wrinkle up a little like a dragster's tires, they're transferring a tremendous amount of force. I got tired (no pun intended) of digging four holes where I didn't want any, just trying to fill my bucket with stone. The Michelin tread design, closer to a high performance ag tread, doesn't seem to carry as much mud and has more traction from the pattern than typical R4 tread, as well. If they slip now, she's really puttin' out. And the ride is much nicer. All in all, so far, a very worthwhile experiment. So, successful, in fact, that I'm considering switching the front bias-ply tires to Michelin 11-16 XM27's to match the tread design of the rear 19.5LR24's. Someday.

The tire companies' literature says that something like 75%-90% of all tires used for ag purposes are over-inflated. I believe them. When I got these new tires, the guy at the farm tire store said he would never run the tires at less than 35 front and 20 rear. Now this guy isn't dumb, and he's certainly got a lot of experience, but the only smart thing to do is figure out what loads you're dealing with, and check the manufacturers inflation tables to see what pressure they need for that load. Thus my reduction to 20 psi front and 9 psi rear. Huge improvement.

Incidentally, I found another really neat side effect of having the tires filled to only 50% with liquid ballast, instead of the 75% I had previously. The sloshing effect allows you to shift the 4WD lever or differential range select lever without playing with the HST pedal, brake or clutch. Just put some pressure on it, and wait for the sloshing to jiggle it enough that it shifts. I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek, here, but it does work, most of the time...

By the way, thanks for all the kind words from so many in private emails. That's why I'm continuing this tome. And if anybody has any thoughts on how to do any of this stuff better, or if you've been down this road and see some of my mistakes before I get there, please chime in with your dollar's worth.

Coming in Chapter 3: a follow-up usage report after a 20-30 hour major project, a tooth bar and pallet forks for the 4-in-1 loader bucket, maybe some lights and additional wiring, who knows?

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

This is a repost of my "chapter 3" post to the original "L4310 Enhancements" topic on the old forum, dated 12/9/99:

Chapter 3 (There's not as much to report as I would've liked, but here it is anyway):

I just finished a 5-day project during which I put 25 hours on my L4310HST. Most of the time was spent hauling trees (up to 22' tall & 500 lbs 2 to 3 at a time), digging up and hauling large rocks (no idea how heavy, but some bigger than 3 men could even shift), grading, digging up topsoil and relocating it to build plant bed mounds (about 15' wide by 50' long x 4' high), digging holes for trees (using a PTO-powered Danuser digger with 18/30" step auger; broke 7 shear pins in the rocky soil), and tilling (using a 68" Agric rotary tiller).

First, I have to rave again about the Michelin XM27 19.5LR24 tires. There's an unbelievable difference in traction and ride, especially after airing them down to 9 psi. So much, in fact, that I'm now thinking seriously about trying the Michelin 11LR16 XM27's on the front (everything has its disadvantages). Also, after talking to Michelin customer relations again today, I'm going to pursue adding wheel weights and removing the liquid ballast. They claim considerable improvement in ride and traction using, potentially, lower overall weight.

The 2 1/2" loader cylinders are a huge success. I wish I'd switched them sooner. Lift force now slightly exceeds breakout force, which makes for some interesting differences in usage, but nothing too difficult to get used to.

The bolt-on tooth bar on the bucket is far more practical than I'd expected. I expected to find it useful when doing nothing but digging, of course, but found it so useful at other times that I left it on the whole time, even though I could have removed it. If I were trying to spread a lot of gravel on a road and didn't have a rear blade, I'd probably go ahead and take it off, but otherwise, with the 4-in-1 bucket, I'd just open it up and use the other two smooth edges. I noticed absolutely no tendency for the bolt-on bar to wobble or loosen, even though I didn't think it really fit as well as it should have. I was able to dig almost effortlessly in places that would have been a real chore without the teeth. They made a huge difference in the capabilities of the machine. I often felt I was using a much larger backhoe/loader, in fact. I was able to out-dig a Bobcat 763 that was on the site and the guy running it could just about make it talk. He is a much more experienced operator than I am. (I have to confess to envying his maneuverability, though.) Another thing I noticed was that there were times I could just rake an area with the teeth to break it up where, before, I would have had to use the tiller even though it was overkill. Digging up and moving rock was much easier with the teeth. It worked so well that I half expected that it might have damaged my bucket because of the force I was able to put on it, but after removing the tooth bar and checking, I found no evidence of bending or wear. I think I mentioned this in a previous post in another thread, but I also found the teeth to be extremely useful with the backhoe. I was able to dig them in to stabilize the tractor and they just about eliminated any tendency to slide the tractor backwards when digging.

Another recent addition that I bought because of some conversations via private email with a very knowledgeable engineer was a tilt indicator (#7489SDI) from R&B Manufacturing (www.tiltmeter.com). I have to say that even though I didn't get it mounted as soon as I'd wanted to, when I did get to use it I learned more from it in a few hours than I have from years of "seat-of-the-pants" operation. Some slopes look steeper than they are. More importantly, some look less. This thing doesn't care what it looks like - it tells you what it is. Obviously, it won't prevent you from rolling over, and if you drive out onto a 25 degree slope, read the slope indicator and say "Wow!", then roll over, it didn't help. But you can often feel when the tractor starts getting "squirrelly" and read the indicator to see what the slope is for future reference. I'm going to try to do some testing with the backhoe mounted (and a higher than normal center of gravity) and the stabilizer pads out to see what degree of tilt causes it to start to tip. If I get up the nerve.

While I was gone, I found some really well designed dust covers for hydraulic disconnects at Tractor Supply, Incorporated. All the others I've tried fall off but these stay put.

I still continue to be amazed at the advantages of the HST transmission. I never feel any indication of a lack of power if the range is matched to the job. The enhanced control and ease of use make using the tractor so much more enjoyable and productive. I was working on some very steep slopes and the infinite speed control made it a lot less stimulating (read heart-stopping) and allowed me to do some stuff I wouldn't have tried without it. When working around a lot of people, as I was most of the time during the project, the increased safety made for a considerably lower stress level. (Sorry for the choppy style, but I'm listing stuff as I think of it, not making it into an article.) The ability to come to a smooth controlled stop in any situation quicker than I could've thought about doing it with a manual transmission made the work a lot more enjoyable, too. I also burn just over half the fuel with this tractor that I did with my previous L3600GST. I believe this is because I used to control my speed with the foot throttle before and now, with the absence of a foot throttle, I set the engine speed for what I'm doing, and let the diesel run where it's most efficiently matched for the job. It spends a lot less time at higher rpms than before, which has to save wear and tear on the engine, too.

That's it for this time, I think. I just found out today that my pallet forks came in while I was gone (hopefully the right ones this time), so I'll get to try them out for next time.

P.S. (back to the year 2000 here): I hope nobody minds me reposting this stuff - it's quite lengthy - but a lot of questions I've seen recently relate to some of this stuff. Also, there's pictures of most of this stuff in earlier posts on this thread.

MarkC

 

[gordon]

Mark, remember when I brought this idea up awhile back? just wondering if you ever put the fans or a fan on your tractor to help keep you cool. One other question have you put the stereo on yet?---You have to have alittle Bach going and it will keep your production up for hours!!!
Gordon