L45 vs M59 - or skidsteer

[rScotty]

This unit has the padded feet, like for paved surfaces. So it's not really "biting" into the turf. It's just sliding and making a mess. I've got all the wheels off the ground and the bucket is preventing it from pushing the tractor, but the loader bucket doesn't do anything to prevent it from pulling the tractor.

As we say around here, "That must have been quite the rodeo.....!" I'm sorry to have missed it. The normal way to deal with padded feet on dirt is to reverse the foot pads. Most are reversible with steel on the other side.....I don't know about the L47. But there just isn't much you can do with frozen ground; I wouldn't even try it on the big JD310. And that is a true construction machine - over 20,000 lbs set up as it is with foot pads that take real muscle to reverse. The 310's pads are huge cast things that must weigh close to 100 lbs each. Yet it is helpless as a kitten on frozen ground.

Normally we guys who like to play in the dirt wait until thaw when we can deal with hard-packed ground by first tearing it up with plow or scarafier of some sort...A FEL bucket by itself won't do much to hard-packed or even medium packed ground. Even a bulldozer prefers to have the ground torn up first. And that's for normal unfrozen dirt. None of them will do squat to frozen ground. Pretty much nothing will work frozen ground.

To tear up unfrozen ground for the FEL bucket to transport, I use the nifty SSQA to swap to a rock bucket which is pretty good at tearing up the ground. After the ground is loosened, any FEL loader tractor's bucket can easily load it up, transport it, and level it up by back dragging. The L45 is more than enough machine to do that job - scarifying and then moving and leveling. It something that all compact tractors do well.

The inching is neat, but it didn't work going up any sort of incline. And disengaging the front parking brake from the reversed seat is impossible. And yeah, the rear parking brake not being engaged while you swivel the seat seems unsafe. I was on a hill and started to roll while I was spinning the seat around. I dropped the legs and stopped the roll, but I should have been able to leave the parking brake on. Strange design.

The inching function is handy, but using it takes some practice. Kubota's instructions don't make it clear that the incher works like a hand-operated extension of the foot pedal. That means you need to know what gear you are in and have the auto-throttle on. To use it better, shift the range lever into low or turtle-medium before rotating around to the backhoe position. Be prepared that you'll have to really lean on the incher lever against a strong spring to get it to rev up and move....then it will surprise you.

Yes, the kindest thing I can say about Kubotas TLB parking brake is it is a poorly thought out. My guess is a first try by a novice mechanical system designer. Compare it with commercial TLBs which use an electrically switched mechanical solenoid to activate the parking brakes which then remain locked any time the engine is not running. You cannot start a commercial tractor without cycling the parking brake, and if you try to put it in gear with the parking brake still engaged a loud alarm goes off. IMHO, that type of system is minimal for good practice when the brake pads are internal and especially when they share fluid with the transmission.
The parking brake is a real weakness with Kubota - and with lots of other Ag and CUT tractor brands too.

For the small homeowner type stuff, like digging out rocks in the yard, moving compost, tending the gravel drive, dragging fallen trees, etc., I think this machine is fine. When it comes to re-grading the yard to drain better, I doubt even the M59 is going to be enough. I either need to get some pros with heavy equipment back here or come up with an active drain system that pumps uphill. The ground was frozen, so I'm sure that's not helping, but just sitting out there looking at how many cubic yards of shale and dirt will need to be moved and how many hundreds of feet I'll need to move them... It's either an all-summer job for a small TLB and this homeowner, or it's a job for a real crew with much larger machines like bulldozers and such.

You've got the right of it. There are a lot of contractors available. For any large scale re-grading I like to hire them for a day and then I can make it look nice at my leisure - putting down turf and planting trees.....that sort of thing. The L45 will no doubt do those jobs. The M59 is quite a bit heavily built than the L45 without being that much larger physically. Side by side the difference is obvious and puts the M59 somewhere in the gray area between homeowner and commercial machines. I didn't need the advantages of the L45 - which are trailerability and the ability to get into tighter areas. So I went for the comfort of the M59 and also the heavier Cat I/II 3pt hitch. If the L45 had been available at the time it would have been a harder decision.

More about backhoes & reach....You've no doubt noticed that it is reach - not digging depth that is more important. Digging depth is just a more popular term. But how far out and to the side a bucket will reach is more useful for everyday work. If you use it as a crane, then loading height is a factor too. In all of these things, every two feet of extra reach probably makes the hoe twice as efficient. For one thing, you can get to things farther away, and put the spoils pile farther out to the side. A foot or two there is a big help. I'd say your getting a feel for reach and depth was worth the rental cost all by itself.
rScotty

 

[crazyal]

I went through something similar 15 years ago. I knew I was going to need a tractor for things like snow removal and brush hogging in the long term. But being raw wood land I needed a way to remove stumps to put in a driveway and a foundation for a house. Then, of course there was always a ditch or trench to be dug. My plan was to get a larger Kubota and a backhoe for it. The M59s around me were just too expensive. and most used tractors didn't have a backhoe attachment with would of added an extra $10k(ish). I ended up buying a used full sized backhoe.

A few things I found out is that the loader is used a lot more than you think. Stumps are heavy and moving them takes a good size machine. I agree that grinding is a much better option as you eliminate the need to move or find a spot to put them. Chances are you will have to remove some. If you plan on grinding stumps and have a lot to do I would think about buying a 3pt grinder. That way you can just do it as you have time vs trying to maximize your rental time (unless you are just going to pay someone else to do it).

The L45 is about the same HP as my 4240 (the L45 is probably built a little more ruggedly but it does have a little less PTO HP) and I think it'll do the job you want but if it was me I would seriously be looking at the larger M59. Everything else can be added after the fact, you can't bolt on more HP. It's easy to spend others money but I do believe it would be a safe investment. The M59 sell well so if it turns out to be too big then I believe you will be able to sell it and size down without much loss. Another point is that the L45 has something like 32hp if I remember. That's kind of on the edge for some attachments. For snow blower and a flail mower it would mean going slower, may not be an issue but then again if you have to go really slow (and you're not going to know until you've done it several times) then you'll find you wished you got the bigger tractor. If it fits kind of tight on you then I would also be looking at the M59. But that's up to you, making some adjustments isn't a big deal but being uncomfortable is never fun. After all, a tractor's purpose is to get work done but also allow us to enjoy ourselves while doing it.

 

[mike69440]

The loader will lift far more than the backhoe. The M59 loader will lift 4000 lbs at the bucket pins, 3000# at the midpoint of the bucket, and 2000# at the bucket lip. The M59 bucket holds about a cubic yard of material - which will vary from 2000 lbs for dry dirt to about 3000 # for wet sand. The smaller L45 bucket should be sized for it's lift, but I don't have the specs. I'll attach a graph of the backhoe capacity for the M59; it will lift about 1300 lbs. Digging downforce is much higher, and the backhoe has no problem lifting the entire tractor while pivoting on the bucket lip.




I agree. Do you have your eye on any particular used machines? We haven't talked about condition, but it counts for a lot. I suspect that the L45 would have enough power for your needs. I've never run into a situation where the M59 lacked power except when driving on the road and going uphill. Then it wants 3 low rather than 3 hi. I wouldn't worry about HP as much as I would prefer the larger tire size, clearance and such of the larger machine. Something to consider is that there seem to be a lot more owneres with M59s on TBN than with L45s. I did consider the L48, but the cab felt a little cramped. In retrospect I'm glad to have gotten the larger machine. My wife made me do it!.




T&T is nice, but I still say not essential. Where I would want it is if I were doing a lot of work scarifying or box grading. A mower or snow blower is usually just a set and use adjustment....not something you constantly adjust angle or tilt. Remember, the geometry of a standard 3pt keeps the implement level when you lift and lower it. If it were me, I'd get the rear remotes over the T&T.

Box blades and the land levelers do not normally have any provision for tilt, offset, or angle. Basic lightweight back blades will angle, but not tilt or offset. A heavier duty back blade has those adjustments and the best ones do it hydraulically - if you have rear remotes. A really nice back blade with rear remotes working the hydraulic adjusters will do far more. It is a real road builder which will build the crown and ditch as well. Add the removeable pin-on end caps that are options on the better back blades and it will also do the job of a box blade or land leveler. But those nice back blades are as pricy as they are nice to have. I'll attach some pictures. Used implements are just as good as new ones - and sometimes half the price. They don't drop below that price very often. The M59 can just barely handle an 8 foot Big Rhino.




Yes, and I don't know much about working in your eastern woodlands with heavy brush. That makes me cringe. Our western forests don't have that type of underbrush. We tend to have to deal with rocks instead of saplings.
I don't think I would weld any protection to the bottom. Instead, Use "L" brackets to hold a piece of heavy plywood or 1/8" steel if needed. The only place that looks vulnerable on the M59 is where the hydraulic filters protrude.



Stumps are time-consuming even with the M59. In fact, they aren't any more fun with the bigger JD310 with AC, 95hp, and a cab with music. A two foot trunk may require a hole ten feet across and 5 feet deep. I've never done a 36" one. Breaking through the roots is hard on the machine and operator as the tractor bounces around. If there is a taproot below the root ball then things get even worse. Resist the impulse to pound on the stump - they rarely split & really abuses the hoe. Just chew away. You have to dig an astonishing hole before the hoe will lift the root ball. Wish I had better news, but I just haven't found a better way than simply going slow and digging them out.
Pros sometimes excavate on one side of a tree and then push it over - popping the root ball free of the ground. That takes a dozer....., and it doesn't help if you've already got stumps. I've got a few dozen stumps yet to go and not looking forward to them.
Luck,
rScotty

I.m surprised that the craning specs on the M59 are no stronger than the L39/L45 according to the manual?

The rest of the specs outclass the 10' ft. hoe

Other than Loader curl force the L45 is one strong loader also. I went up 5mm in bore size when I overhauled my loader. For the size of the machine, it is now just a little bit stronger than safe, just the way I like it.

Power wise, considering the weight, the L39 Is not too peppy for sure. Tire size is too small. But otherwise it is an excellent machine.

I use my machine very hard. I do have some mechanical sympathy, but I doubt any other tractor would have survived me after 2,300 hours.

I hate snow plowing. 12 Inches too look forward to in the morning and near an acre to plow.

As can be seen in the attached my neighbor & I have different solutions to similar challenges.
Traction: Skidsteer, Tractor , Tracsteer, just something to consider.

 

[mike69440]

How well would the L45 lift 2000 lbs? I've never looked at the specs but that's got to be near it's limit.

Lifts over 2,000 just fine. Just to full height is areal pucker factor.
I was really nervous lifting 1,800 up on a 1'st floor deck, and I have wheel weights also.

 

[mike69440]

Resurrecting this thread because I'm in the same boat looking at some used machines.

I can get a L45 with a thumb for about $4000 less than than an M59 with no thumb. I could put that $4000 into adding front and rear remotes and a top and tilt. For a homeowner needing to clear snow, maintain a gravel drive, clear brush, and do landscape work including some regrading of the lawn for drainage and some stump removal, would I be better off with the upgraded L45 or the more spartan M59?

I am only using it for personal use or for helping out the neighbors, and I don't intend to ever sell it, so I'm trying to make a BIFL decision.

For your situation, and yours only, the L45

 

[mike69440]

So the rental place dropped off the L45 a day early and they're coming back on Monday to pick it up. Apparently they had a lot of deliveries scheduled.

We had an ice storm last night and so everything is frozen and it was pretty windy too, so I had to really bundle up. The rental yard didn't bother removing the 2 cubic foot ice cube from the backhoe bucket, but the kids got a kick out it when I finally got it loose.

It's smaller than I was expecting. I'm only 6' and there's no way I can swivel in that seat, my knees and feet have nowhere to go. The L-N-M-N-H lever is really hard to use on this particular unit, but I don't know if that's normal. Needed two hands to shift. It has 900 hours, but all rental, and it looks roughed up. The parking brake also didn't have a good feel on it.

The ground here is frozen so that doesn't help, but the backhoe was really struggling with a 24" bucket to break some of the rocks out of the ground. I'm sure I need a lot more practice, but I was surprised how easily the bucket would just freeze. Wasn't slow, it just couldn't curl and break the rocks out of the soil. I don't know if the wheels are filled or not, but it was kinda scary how easily the backhoe could drag the whole tractor around. The outriggers just dragged along the topsoil. Maybe the parking brake wasn't set right. I'll check that tomorrow. The overall backhoe reach also seemed short. When I read that it was a 10' backhoe, I was thinking "I won't need to dig 10' deep holes" but what I wasn't thinking is that you can only dig a few feet before you need to reposition and you can't empty the bucket more than maybe 8 feet on either side. So that was disappointing, but I also know that ~$30K isn't really going to get you a lot of backhoe, especially when you can remove it and run a 3 point off the back.

I had fun for an hour before I had to get back to my desk job. I think I'll like having something around, hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to decide if I can live with the L45 size.

My L39 had the factory loader valve relief pressures under spec when it was new. Long since corrected. I bet the rental yard never checked the pressures. why should they?

Digging frozen ground is really tough. 24" bucket is to big for L45 in tough soil. L45 needs loaded tires or wheel weights as it makes tractor more stable and hoe will still move it around.

 

[c304]

Update. So both the original M59 and L45 sold, the L45 just 5 hours before I went to the dealership.

So I ended up with an M59 with a thumb but no remotes with 650 hours. I'll have it sent to the local Kubota dealership to have the remotes installed and get the 3 point arms.

I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions later, but for now I'm off to read some "new owner" threads.

Thank you for your helpful advice, I am still very anxious about this purchase, but at least I had good information to make my decision with!

 

[rScotty]

Update. So both the original M59 and L45 sold, the L45 just 5 hours before I went to the dealership.

So I ended up with an M59 with a thumb but no remotes with 650 hours. I'll have it sent to the local Kubota dealership to have the remotes installed and get the 3 point arms.

I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions later, but for now I'm off to read some "new owner" threads.

Thank you for your helpful advice, I am still very anxious about this purchase, but at least I had good information to make my decision with!

It sounds great! If it's just not right for you, I'm sure it will be easy to find a buyer for a fully loaded M59 with less than 1000 hours. That's a pretty desireable package.
Let the fun begin!
rScotty

 

[c304]

Just an update related to a concern I had with sizing...

The M59 with the seat slid all the way back is JUST big enough for my feet/legs to swing to the rear. Could not do with the L45 at all and couldn't do with the M59 in the middle position (which is the most comfortable for me to drive in). So for any future readers, one of my biggest concerns was addressed by the slight size difference. That extra 2" or whatever did the trick.

 

[rScotty]

Why didn't Kubota put the parking brake on the other side of the seat? That would solve the foot swing problem. I finally took off the left side hand brake and stored it with my spare parts. Now there is room for my feet. Intended to remount it on the other side of the seat....but haven't gotten around to it yet (10 years). ... For a parking brake I'd rather use the bucket or BH feet anyway. Haven't really missed that hand brake. And now at least I won't forget and leave it engaged when I drive off. That can be a problem.
rScotty