loggers are coming to clear the land behind us

[Taylortractornut]

You can ask them to leave a buffer zone. As for runoff stormwater management is a super big thing. They will probably windrow the slash on their side of the property line to catch silt and sedimnent. I thin in MS its customary to leave the line trees to. At the landfill we value our neighbors as they can make it hard on a site. We used to leave some neighbors a key to one of the side gates to ride horses on and use the spring fed lake on the site. WHen the owners had out buffer zones logged they raised heck about it. We told them it was out of our hands at the moment as later in the landfills life those hills will be used for new cell liners, and final covers.

They called DEQ, the owners , even our drivers. After all this we cancelled their horse riding and logged all the trees. Id ask politely to get a buffer strip left and keep my access on the land.

 

[Garybake]

Big Baller you have my sympathy as well but why make yourself sick over it. If they take any of your trees there is big money for you but they know that and are really cautious. Maybe after he clears he will put in a nice big pond that you can enjoy with the displaced wildlife... You never know, could build a WalMart as well. I am with others here in improving your bordering area if need be and accept it. Inlaws neighbors cleared and put in a sour gas well pump that is quite productive but smells bad enough to turn your stomach. Worst thing you have to do... move.

 

[s219]

The importance of a strong tap root is a fallacy that is commonly accepted by foresters and others, so you are not alone. So you have a 20 inch tree, 90 ft. tall with a 12" diameter tap root. What's going to break first? The 12" tap root. How widely the root system spreads is actually more important than a tap root.

What I have seen is that many trees with a taproot end up snapping off (higher up) rather than blowing down. We did a lot of cleanup after hurrcane Irene came through, and in one hard hit stand of trees, everything with a taproot was snapped off about 2/3 up. Everything else was blown down pushing the rootball up out of the ground.

I don't think the tap root is important solely by itself -- it's the whole root system that matters, as you note. But what the taproot does is to affect the aptly named root bending moment. That's what keeps the base of the tree fairly well entrenched and causes maximum stress higher up.

What happens next really depends on the type of wood and its material characteristics. In a tree like a pine, which has a taproot and is fairly brittle, the crown will snap off in a clean fracture, leaving a totem pole.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Ron,

Your comments about wind are only partially correct. In 1983 I was called in to lead the planning for dealing with over 6000 acres of blowdown, so I learned a little about wind and trees.

The basics:

The most important factors in keeping trees upright are the strength of the wind, the density of the stand over the life of the trees and the soil conditions. Species is also important, but the importance of it varies.

Cedar is very wind firm, but often grows in risky areas. DF is also windfirm, but not as firm as cedar in those risky places. Yes, DF doesn't grow much of a tap root, but the experts say, and the physics say that a tap root isn't that big a deal in holding a tree against the wind. The importance of a strong tap root is a fallacy that is commonly accepted by foresters and others, so you are not alone. So you have a 20 inch tree, 90 ft. tall with a 12" diameter tap root. What's going to break first? The 12" tap root. How widely the root system spreads is actually more important than a tap root.

The most important factor is the density of the stand over the life of the tree. Trees grown in the open develop wind firmness and hold up better than those in a tight stand. Closely spaced trees will be at risk until thinning and for about 3-5 years after thinning. Look at individual trees growing in a pasture and you'll see the effect of being exposed all the tree's life. Ever drive thru the Columbia Gorge? The wind howls thru there. With all that frequent wind, strong wind, the trees have adapted to it over their life and rarely blow down or break off. The rule of thumb is that to maintain wind firmness, you need a ratio of diameter to height of greater than 1:100, i.e., more than 12" diameter for a 120 foot tree. That's just a rule of thumb and in my opinion, it's too optimistic, I would go for a larger diameter.

Those trees in a pasture also have large crowns, the "sail effect" you mention. Not important if the trees are adapted to the wind. Again, look at the Gorge.

I have heard the comment before about trees supporting each other in the wind. How do you suppose they do that? The strongest part of the wind either blows over the top of the stand or between the trees depending on density and what is upwind of the stand. When a gust hits a stand, they all bend the same way, in sequence as the wind strikes them. They don't support each other, and in fact if one leans against another, it puts more stress on the second tree, increasing the likelihood of that tree going down.

If wind is a concern, space the trees wide and thin often and gradually.

Yes I have heard both stories equally about how trees withstand wind. In my forest the ones that seem to blow down are the ones spaced the furtherest apart. In the dense areas, 3-6 feet apart or less, there are no blow downs. I did not know tap roots have little effect that but that is what I have heard all my time in the NW (55 yrs). Of course the clear cutters slant stuff to support what they are doing and the sustained yield advocates have the opposite story. My management plan calls for 450 seedlings/AC to assure in 20 yeras there are 250 trees/AC which is what the state requires. Both natural and deliberate thinning are in the plan. That applies to the early years brush also. Brush management has an economic advantage as it produces marketable product. The alders are a whole different story. Most of the bigest alders are in the stream restricted zone so they won't be logged. I am gradually thinning out the biggest anyway as they are at the end of their life. Most of the blow down is in the alders as they are inherently as they get older. They rot fast so have to get the dead ones out quick to use for firewood. I will cold deck the big alders as I get them out till I have a truckload or more then send to the mill. Watch the values as at times they are worth more than the fir. In the stream buffer alsders will be replaced with western red cedar as the do better in wetter areas than fir. I have a professional forester/logging consutant that is a friend so he helps me out. It will be interesting to see how we do with the christmas tree enterprise. They are going into a bare area that we can even irrigate. Thanks for your info, I'll run it through the filter here and probably use some.

Ron

 

[clemsonfor]

Most States it's 2 to 2 1/2 times the value of the stumpage.

If it's a thinning they will mark the trees to be cut, if its a clear cut they will only mark the perimeter.

Those that mention this you and a guy up about 4 posts im gonna point out 2 other alternative.

It can be a thinning with a paint color others than blue, even if there is just a bounday you can still thin it. There is operator select thinning method where the man on the cutter selects the trees to be harvested, usually dont in lesser value wood where a decesion is not a big deal, or first thinnings. Since this is planted esp if in rows it can also be row thinned, like where they take every third , fourth, or fith rows and or not thin between the rows left. clearcut and marked thin are not the only methods. Again, im a forester.

 

[clemsonfor]

Dang it, you made me go look it up for NC. :laughing: I was trying to avoid it buy curiosity got the better of me.....

What was in my head was the the penalty in NC was THREE times the value of the timber.

I was right.

I was wrong.

Details matter.



In NC the penalty is THREE times the value of timber. *** IF *** the timber is owned by the state. This is in Chapter 14 which contains NC criminal statutes. So I was right. Most statues I read are Chapter 14.

BUT, why is there always a but, for private land the penalty is TWICE the value of the timber. This is in a different statute chapter, Chapter 1 which is Civil Procedures. I do not think I have ever look at Chapter 1 before.

I remember that a company timbered some land in Raleigh years ago. The logger had title to the trees but he did not get approval from the city. The city nailed his fanny to the, well, trees. What I remember being reported was that they fined him three times the value. But that is a different circumstance.

This has been nagging me for a week or two due to a post I read on another website. I had to go look up the statutes.

Later,
Dan

I saw your earlier post, SC i think was 3x but think it went up to 5x a few years ago? Id have to look myself?

 

[clemsonfor]

For those that are interested, creek buffers or SMZ's stream side mgt zones are optional here in GA and SC. That said most mills require them for the logger to be allowed to deliver them wood. But not a legal issue to cut a creek. Sediment in a creek is a clean water Act violation though.

Think of swamp loggers you can cut a swamp no regulations at all, its considered an Ag practice.

Again im a forester.

 

[Mudfarmer]

In Washington state: fifty feet buffer from non-fish-bearing year round stream, 100 (or more depending on circumstances) from fish bearing stream.
Mf

 

[Western]

Kind of surprised at some of the post replies, some almost as "overboard" as the OP's thought of controlling the legal actions of another property owner.

To the OP, I am hoping when you posted you where "upset" and understandably so, but I'm sure deep down you know thats the way it goes when your a land owner.
What would you sue for? seriously. I mean , a company that owns or leases 1000's of acres, deals with land owners like yourself so much, it's probably "old hat" to their attorneys. Trying not to be crude, but they are probably better funded than you or most small land owners and most certainly well versed in their field. Pi$$ them off and they could probably push a huge "dike" or berm to stop the water flow onto your property, then open it up for a public shooting range!!

I would take the advice of the guy's and consider planting trees that YOU can control, then try to contact the Manager of the timber project, express your concerns, even if the guy is an *****, (he may have had a bad day) give him an "out". Most contractors I have ever known in varying fields, will usually go the extra mile if possible, to do something nice, job permitting. Hit them up with the "law suit" word and you may end up with a new shooting range, so to speak.

Don't make their business issues your emotional issues, it is business for them. If they cross the line, or in fact do you wrong then up the ante'
just my humble:2cents:

 

[Hollow]

In Washington state: fifty feet buffer from non-fish-bearing year round stream, 100 (or more depending on circumstances) from fish bearing stream.
Mf

Some states allow harvesters to select trees out of a buffer zone as long as they don't take over 30% of the canopy.