Looking at an International 250C

[jinman]

The advantage of tracks over wheels is the lower psi on the ground. My 40,000 dozer can cross wet soil that will bog down my 14,000 backoe.

If you read the history of tractors, you find that the introduction of the rubber tire was met with opposition because many people said tires would compact the soil more than the iron cleats used previously. As with most things, there are no absolutes. A rubber tire loader has pretty huge tires and they are normally not a deep tread pattern. A dozer with a fairly new track will have cleats that are over 1" deep. Those cleats will have much more psi than the track as a whole. A worn track with 1/2" cleats doesn't have the same ability to compact soil as deep cleat on a new track. I guess it's like comparing a smooth roller to a sheeps foot roller.

I have anecdotal evidence from a friend who rented a Case LBH to build a pond dam. The dam looked good, according to him, but with the first big rain, it failed and washed out. He then rented a dozer to rebuild the dam and it has held ever since. Was it his method or the equipment? Perhaps it was the moisture in the soil and his technique that made the second dam more successful. I suspect technique had at least as much to do with success as the equipment.

I have also only seen one pond dam built with a rubber tire loader in my local area. It's still holding up pretty well, so I know it can be done. I do think the stability and lower center-of-gravity on the dozer gives you the ability to go places I would not want to travel on a rubber tire loader. I do think a rubber tire loader and a sheepsfoot roller to pull behind it would be a nice combination.One thing for sure. If you have to carry the spoils very far, the rubber tire loader will "eat the lunch" of a dozer.

 

[Groo]

there probably is something to the cleet therory, look at the wheel loaders they use in garbage dumps.

if compaction is your big fear, why not rent one of those lump rollers for a day after you are done shaping it.

whatever you end up with, alot of extra driving around would probably help.

 

[AlanB]

What if you put tire chains on the tires of the loader to get that point cleat effect?

I think some of the things with the pond dams would be the way the dozers put in all the little ridges which help to avoid runoff getting started.

I wonder if chains would produced a similar result?

 

[backdoor]

Eddie is right about the compaction. Some of the bigger dairy farms around here have large trench silos for holding their corn feed for winter. They have several choppers running at once, and several trucks hauling silage to the trenches. They use dozers to keep the silage spread, and have rubber tired tractors packing, to get the air out and to get more silage into the trench. I owned a 955L CAT for a number of years, and after packing in fill dirt on roadways or over culverts I could still make impressions into the dirt with my pickup if I only used the loader tracks to pack with. Not deep impressions but enough to tell that the dirt was still a little loose, and that's in red clay. If you cut a good core for the dam, keep the roots out of the dirt, and use a sheepfoot behind a farm tractor or your dozer you can build a decent dam.

 

[EddieWalker]

If you read the history of tractors, you find that the introduction of the rubber tire was met with opposition because many people said tires would compact the soil more than the iron cleats used previously. As with most things, there are no absolutes. A rubber tire loader has pretty huge tires and they are normally not a deep tread pattern. A dozer with a fairly new track will have cleats that are over 1" deep. Those cleats will have much more psi than the track as a whole. A worn track with 1/2" cleats doesn't have the same ability to compact soil as deep cleat on a new track. I guess it's like comparing a smooth roller to a sheeps foot roller.

I have anecdotal evidence from a friend who rented a Case LBH to build a pond dam. The dam looked good, according to him, but with the first big rain, it failed and washed out. He then rented a dozer to rebuild the dam and it has held ever since. Was it his method or the equipment? Perhaps it was the moisture in the soil and his technique that made the second dam more successful. I suspect technique had at least as much to do with success as the equipment.

I have also only seen one pond dam built with a rubber tire loader in my local area. It's still holding up pretty well, so I know it can be done. I do think the stability and lower center-of-gravity on the dozer gives you the ability to go places I would not want to travel on a rubber tire loader. I do think a rubber tire loader and a sheepsfoot roller to pull behind it would be a nice combination.One thing for sure. If you have to carry the spoils very far, the rubber tire loader will "eat the lunch" of a dozer.

Sorry Jim, but your cleat theory doesn't add up unless you are working with lifts that are less then the depth of your cleats, but even then, I'd have my doubts.

First, there are different levels of compaction. Dams for ponds are rarely compacted very well. They might seem tight, and for what they do, they are. But in the world of construction and compacting soil, it takes allot to get proper compaction. My first job after the Marine Corps was in construction and dirt work. I wasn't an operator, just a hand who did odd jobs and ran the water truck. Each type of soil has it's only limits and ratings for what it can hold/support. When compacting it, moisture content is critical, but then so is the amount of lift and the time spent on the roller. With clay, it's always a sheepsfoot, but with more rocky soil, smooth rollers were used. Depending on the job, either a dozer, a wheel loader or a grader was used to spread the material. Then it was worked with the rollers. There was usually an engineer on sight to determine how long this would take, but to be sure, they tested it with a machine that sent a signal into the ground and back up again. Kind of like radar, but I was told it was radioactive. The goal was 97 to 98 percent compaction.

For us doing things on our land, it's all about what will press the soil that we dump there the best. Pond dams use whatever comes out of the hole. If it's built up in mild lifts and run over a whole bunch of times, it usually holds water. My dam is made with my dozer, but I also ran my dump truck over it hundreds and hundreds of times with a full load. I don't know if that helped, or to what degree, but it sure seemed like a good idea.

If you used a wheel loader and dumped a load, backgraded it and drove over it with the tires, you'd have allot more compaction then if you did the same thing with a dozer. With the wheels, you could get compaction enough to build a house, with tracks, it would never happen.

Eddie

 

[jinman]

If you used a wheel loader and dumped a load, backgraded it and drove over it with the tires, you'd have allot more compaction then if you did the same thing with a dozer. With the wheels, you could get compaction enough to build a house, with tracks, it would never happen.

Eddie

Okay Eddie, this is now on my wishlist. I've found several on Machinery Trader in my price range.

Deere 644 Loader

 

[EddieWalker]

My brother was here for a few weeks and we're looking at some land for him to buy and move here. He's new to tractors and thinks he has it all figured out. He said he's going to buy a wheel loader with a five yard bucket so he doesn't need a dump truck. He's gonna just haul the dirt around on the wheel loader. hahahaha I'm not sure if I got through to him that if he can afford to buy one that large, he cannot afford to keep it running.

He found a nice piece of land up near Paris that has 40 of 43 acres in pasture. He wants to buy a batwing mower so he can mow it faster. We got to talking about how often he's gonna mow and how much money he'll have tied up into a tractor big enough to pull the mower, and he's having his doubts. For something that he'll only use 6 or 7 times a year, it doesn't make allot of sense.

I'm not sure of all your plans, but having seen your place, I can see where a smaller dozer could come in real handy. I'm not sure how well it would work on digging ponds, but with rippers, it and enough HP, you could get it done. A dozer would be easier to sell too.

Deere and a few others make some really big backhoes. The Deere 710 is a monster that is way too big for hauling around and doing highway/utility work, but woud be awesome for digging a pond and moving material. I looked at a few before buying mine, and sometimes regret the choice. The sheere size of them makes them a bargain since they are so dificult to move around. Can't do it with a pickup truck.

Machinery Trader has a newpaper that comes out about four times a year. It's nothing but advertisements from all those selling equipent. It free and one of the funnest things to look through that I know of. It's where I found my grapple and where I learn about other attachements that I didn't know about.

Eddie

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Hey Jim, just been quietly lurking here 'til now. Need to ask, Are these ponds for you or for customers?

Listening to Eddie, I understand why big dozer operators charge $100/hour. To haul something big, you need permits and big trailers.

 

[jinman]

Hey Jim, just been quietly lurking here 'til now. Need to ask, Are these ponds for you or for customers?

Kyle, the ponds I want to do are for me (see before/after attachments). I might do some work for neighbors, but will not transport the loader. If I can't drive to it, I won't do it. The only time the equipment would be hauled is when I buy it and when I sell it.

As Eddie suggests, I've thought of buying a dump truck to use for hauling, but a rubber tire loader might get me by in my limited area. I would never consider trying to do all of this with only a dozer or any tracked eqiuipment without a dump truck. The nice thing is this is all easy digging with very little timber to deal with. The hardest part is designing all the terraces so that drainage goes into the ponds as I want it to. My total area for the three ponds and access is about 6-1/2 acres. I think the rubber tire loader could handle transport since most of the digging has already been done by mother nature.

 

[john_bud]

Every time I start to think that a dozer would sure be "fun" to have for the many projects around here, Eddie posts up some reality. Thanks Eddie!

Of all the stuff you posted, the one line about "bargains" costing the most is so true. If it was such a bargain, it wouldn't be for sale so cheap!

jb