Looking at an International 250C

[jinman]

The advantage of tracks over wheels is the lower psi on the ground. My 40,000 dozer can cross wet soil that will bog down my 14,000 backoe.

If you read the history of tractors, you find that the introduction of the rubber tire was met with opposition because many people said tires would compact the soil more than the iron cleats used previously. As with most things, there are no absolutes. A rubber tire loader has pretty huge tires and they are normally not a deep tread pattern. A dozer with a fairly new track will have cleats that are over 1" deep. Those cleats will have much more psi than the track as a whole. A worn track with 1/2" cleats doesn't have the same ability to compact soil as deep cleat on a new track. I guess it's like comparing a smooth roller to a sheeps foot roller.

I have anecdotal evidence from a friend who rented a Case LBH to build a pond dam. The dam looked good, according to him, but with the first big rain, it failed and washed out. He then rented a dozer to rebuild the dam and it has held ever since. Was it his method or the equipment? Perhaps it was the moisture in the soil and his technique that made the second dam more successful. I suspect technique had at least as much to do with success as the equipment.

I have also only seen one pond dam built with a rubber tire loader in my local area. It's still holding up pretty well, so I know it can be done. I do think the stability and lower center-of-gravity on the dozer gives you the ability to go places I would not want to travel on a rubber tire loader. I do think a rubber tire loader and a sheepsfoot roller to pull behind it would be a nice combination.One thing for sure. If you have to carry the spoils very far, the rubber tire loader will "eat the lunch" of a dozer.

 

[Groo]

there probably is something to the cleet therory, look at the wheel loaders they use in garbage dumps.

if compaction is your big fear, why not rent one of those lump rollers for a day after you are done shaping it.

whatever you end up with, alot of extra driving around would probably help.

 

[AlanB]

What if you put tire chains on the tires of the loader to get that point cleat effect?

I think some of the things with the pond dams would be the way the dozers put in all the little ridges which help to avoid runoff getting started.

I wonder if chains would produced a similar result?

 

[backdoor]

Eddie is right about the compaction. Some of the bigger dairy farms around here have large trench silos for holding their corn feed for winter. They have several choppers running at once, and several trucks hauling silage to the trenches. They use dozers to keep the silage spread, and have rubber tired tractors packing, to get the air out and to get more silage into the trench. I owned a 955L CAT for a number of years, and after packing in fill dirt on roadways or over culverts I could still make impressions into the dirt with my pickup if I only used the loader tracks to pack with. Not deep impressions but enough to tell that the dirt was still a little loose, and that's in red clay. If you cut a good core for the dam, keep the roots out of the dirt, and use a sheepfoot behind a farm tractor or your dozer you can build a decent dam.

 

[EddieWalker]

If you read the history of tractors, you find that the introduction of the rubber tire was met with opposition because many people said tires would compact the soil more than the iron cleats used previously. As with most things, there are no absolutes. A rubber tire loader has pretty huge tires and they are normally not a deep tread pattern. A dozer with a fairly new track will have cleats that are over 1" deep. Those cleats will have much more psi than the track as a whole. A worn track with 1/2" cleats doesn't have the same ability to compact soil as deep cleat on a new track. I guess it's like comparing a smooth roller to a sheeps foot roller.

I have anecdotal evidence from a friend who rented a Case LBH to build a pond dam. The dam looked good, according to him, but with the first big rain, it failed and washed out. He then rented a dozer to rebuild the dam and it has held ever since. Was it his method or the equipment? Perhaps it was the moisture in the soil and his technique that made the second dam more successful. I suspect technique had at least as much to do with success as the equipment.

I have also only seen one pond dam built with a rubber tire loader in my local area. It's still holding up pretty well, so I know it can be done. I do think the stability and lower center-of-gravity on the dozer gives you the ability to go places I would not want to travel on a rubber tire loader. I do think a rubber tire loader and a sheepsfoot roller to pull behind it would be a nice combination.One thing for sure. If you have to carry the spoils very far, the rubber tire loader will "eat the lunch" of a dozer.

Sorry Jim, but your cleat theory doesn't add up unless you are working with lifts that are less then the depth of your cleats, but even then, I'd have my doubts.

First, there are different levels of compaction. Dams for ponds are rarely compacted very well. They might seem tight, and for what they do, they are. But in the world of construction and compacting soil, it takes allot to get proper compaction. My first job after the Marine Corps was in construction and dirt work. I wasn't an operator, just a hand who did odd jobs and ran the water truck. Each type of soil has it's only limits and ratings for what it can hold/support. When compacting it, moisture content is critical, but then so is the amount of lift and the time spent on the roller. With clay, it's always a sheepsfoot, but with more rocky soil, smooth rollers were used. Depending on the job, either a dozer, a wheel loader or a grader was used to spread the material. Then it was worked with the rollers. There was usually an engineer on sight to determine how long this would take, but to be sure, they tested it with a machine that sent a signal into the ground and back up again. Kind of like radar, but I was told it was radioactive. The goal was 97 to 98 percent compaction.

For us doing things on our land, it's all about what will press the soil that we dump there the best. Pond dams use whatever comes out of the hole. If it's built up in mild lifts and run over a whole bunch of times, it usually holds water. My dam is made with my dozer, but I also ran my dump truck over it hundreds and hundreds of times with a full load. I don't know if that helped, or to what degree, but it sure seemed like a good idea.

If you used a wheel loader and dumped a load, backgraded it and drove over it with the tires, you'd have allot more compaction then if you did the same thing with a dozer. With the wheels, you could get compaction enough to build a house, with tracks, it would never happen.

Eddie

 

[jinman]

If you used a wheel loader and dumped a load, backgraded it and drove over it with the tires, you'd have allot more compaction then if you did the same thing with a dozer. With the wheels, you could get compaction enough to build a house, with tracks, it would never happen.

Eddie

Okay Eddie, this is now on my wishlist. I've found several on Machinery Trader in my price range.

Deere 644 Loader

 

[EddieWalker]

My brother was here for a few weeks and we're looking at some land for him to buy and move here. He's new to tractors and thinks he has it all figured out. He said he's going to buy a wheel loader with a five yard bucket so he doesn't need a dump truck. He's gonna just haul the dirt around on the wheel loader. hahahaha I'm not sure if I got through to him that if he can afford to buy one that large, he cannot afford to keep it running.

He found a nice piece of land up near Paris that has 40 of 43 acres in pasture. He wants to buy a batwing mower so he can mow it faster. We got to talking about how often he's gonna mow and how much money he'll have tied up into a tractor big enough to pull the mower, and he's having his doubts. For something that he'll only use 6 or 7 times a year, it doesn't make allot of sense.

I'm not sure of all your plans, but having seen your place, I can see where a smaller dozer could come in real handy. I'm not sure how well it would work on digging ponds, but with rippers, it and enough HP, you could get it done. A dozer would be easier to sell too.

Deere and a few others make some really big backhoes. The Deere 710 is a monster that is way too big for hauling around and doing highway/utility work, but woud be awesome for digging a pond and moving material. I looked at a few before buying mine, and sometimes regret the choice. The sheere size of them makes them a bargain since they are so dificult to move around. Can't do it with a pickup truck.

Machinery Trader has a newpaper that comes out about four times a year. It's nothing but advertisements from all those selling equipent. It free and one of the funnest things to look through that I know of. It's where I found my grapple and where I learn about other attachements that I didn't know about.

Eddie

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Hey Jim, just been quietly lurking here 'til now. Need to ask, Are these ponds for you or for customers?

Listening to Eddie, I understand why big dozer operators charge $100/hour. To haul something big, you need permits and big trailers.

 

[jinman]

Hey Jim, just been quietly lurking here 'til now. Need to ask, Are these ponds for you or for customers?

Kyle, the ponds I want to do are for me (see before/after attachments). I might do some work for neighbors, but will not transport the loader. If I can't drive to it, I won't do it. The only time the equipment would be hauled is when I buy it and when I sell it.

As Eddie suggests, I've thought of buying a dump truck to use for hauling, but a rubber tire loader might get me by in my limited area. I would never consider trying to do all of this with only a dozer or any tracked eqiuipment without a dump truck. The nice thing is this is all easy digging with very little timber to deal with. The hardest part is designing all the terraces so that drainage goes into the ponds as I want it to. My total area for the three ponds and access is about 6-1/2 acres. I think the rubber tire loader could handle transport since most of the digging has already been done by mother nature.

 

[john_bud]

Every time I start to think that a dozer would sure be "fun" to have for the many projects around here, Eddie posts up some reality. Thanks Eddie!

Of all the stuff you posted, the one line about "bargains" costing the most is so true. If it was such a bargain, it wouldn't be for sale so cheap!

jb

 

[fordman6442]

I was A dealer for I.H.C. for 20 years. The 250C was a good loader but 1 weak spot was the liner packing on the engine. I would get an oil sample done just to make sure no glycol is in the engine oil. Cold weather and sitting was the worst, we used to crack the drain plug and get 1-2 quarts of antifreeze and put it back in the rad. Also to get undercarrige for it is getting scarce as they are no longer built. Most other parts are still avaliable in used.

 

[dawoodwa]

I have worked with much construction equipment, there is a reason that International is not going strong and selling construction equipment today. If you choose to buy a tracked machine go with a brand that is still in business. I prefer Cat and Deere machines but would also consider Komatsu. Don't skimp and look for bargains, there are a lot of costs that could be overwhelming such as torque converters, final drive components, and hydraulic components. Make sure that the undercarriage is in good condition, rails, rollers, and sprockets for our D6 cost more than 14k recently, and we reused our pads after welding on new grouser bars.
Track machines do not compact soil. We move dirt with scrapers and off road trucks, the loaded machines on the large tires will get compaction. New pads on a dozer do not compact soil, work great for walking slopes and crimping in straw mulch but don't compact soil.
My suggestion for a DIY'er would be renting a machine. Take a weeks vacation and rent a decent sized machine that will be capable. Grading is best left to a dozer, loaders work good for loading trucks but even they have fallen victim to the track hoe. We have a CAT 953c and we only use it with a stacking rake.
If the machine will be used for clearing make sure that it has good engine enclosures and good belly pans. It is very important to keep these cleaned out also to prevent fires.

 

[jinman]

Thanks fordman6442 and dawoodwa. Your comments make a lot of sense. I was worried about the engine in the 250C because I looked at the dozer and realized the farmer who owned it didn't do much maintenance. I noticed glycol green antifreeze looking fluid around the radiator cap and wondered if antifreeze had been recently added. I was also thinking that if that engine had wet sleeves (probably did) then they were most likely pitted and ready to leak into the crankcase. It was just too much risk.

Dawoodwa, I'm retired, so taking time off is not a problem. I just don't think I can rent a machine and get a good return on my investment. I'll be really slow in the beginning while learning to operate the machine. I would prefer to spend a little more money and buy a machine that I'm sure I can sell when the job is done. Problem is, as much as I like the size and speed of a big rubber tire loader, I'm not sure how well they dig or if I would be stuck with it. Around here, they are used a lot by rock crushers and haulers to load out trucks. They're also used a lot as forklifts. I haven't seen many people dig with them. Do you know how well they dig? I like the idea of sitting up high in an air conditioned cab of a rubber tire loader while working in the Texas heat. I just hope I'm not kidding myself.

 

[dawoodwa]

OK, jealous about the retired comment. Now for the machines, we had a 544H Deere rubber tire loader that had skidder tires, it would take an acceptable bite in soft soil but it was used mainly with a rake. If you are in virgin soil rubber tire loaders can be disappointing, even if equiped with a toothed bucket. I went back thru the posts and see where you plan on building ponds. I don't know the conditions of the land where you plan on building the ponds but in middle Georgia I won't take a track loader into wet soil, loaders have narrower tracks than dozers and they don't have grouser bars like dozers. The narrow tracks and the weight of the 250 could give you some trouble in wet conditions, remember to get yellow iron unstuck it requires a larger piece of yellow iron. You will need a backhoe to put a dam in with a core, trackhoes are a lot better than TLB's. With our land contours we usually build the dam by cutting in the spillway. The only dirt we usually move within the pond is cutting in the waterline. We always ensure a minimum depth of 3 foot to prevent excessive weed growth. Since I mentioned the spillway make sure that it is capable of handling the flow based upon the size of the watershed that drains into the pond area. Our ASCS offices usually size the width of the spillway for landowners that are planning ponds. Very important to have it sized right to prevent losing the dam in a flood.
If you build the dam with a loader put the dirt down in thin lifts and then get either a roller or something with tires that is heavy to pack the **** out of it.
I've been involved in building ponds from 1/2 acre up to about 35 acres, some went without a hitch, some seemed like we would never top the dam out.
Enjoyed sharing some of my experience and opinons with you.

 

[EddieWalker]

... The hardest part is designing all the terraces so that drainage goes into the ponds as I want it to. My total area for the three ponds and access is about 6-1/2 acres...

Jim,

Steph's uncle used to have a pond next to his house. It's why he built the house where it is, to take advantage of the view of the pond. Then his neighbor built a pond on their land, and his pond dried up. They ended up taking out the dam as it just became an eye sore.

If you build a pond uphill from your other pond, it will catch the water first. If you have dry periods, which you do, the water level will drop. When it rains, the uphill ponds will get the water first and only after they are full, will the next pond get water. You could get a heavy rain and not get any water into your second or third pond if the first pond is down a significant amount!!!!!!

My concern is that if you build these ponds, will the bottom pond get any water? or will the upper ponds catch it all???

Eddie

 

[Taylortractornut]

Jinman I occasionally run a 250 and a 175 track loader for a friend. They do clearing and own a gravel pit. one thing about them you can out clear a similar sized dozer because of the leverage with the bucket. We cleared 45 acres a few months ago with his 250, some trees were 200 years old and we took out the dead ones. reach alon couldnt uproot them so Id take a bucket from around 2 or 3 sides usually 2 to limit my manuvering and dump them on one side then walk up the top of the new dirt ramp and get even more leverage down comes the treen theyo you can stck with the loader. Also a 4 in1 bucket can be found used fairyl cheap for his model. One thing over looked in compaction with a track loader or dozer is yo0u gain a little bit of compaction pushing a load across your work area. We used to get alot of our jobs passed by pushing with a full bucket. Trackloaders are kind of an all around machine, when I was little I lived partrime in Huntsville Alabama with dad on construction sites. Most smaller companies had a dump truck track loader and a grader. they loaded fill dirt with the loader and hauled to the site with the truch then brought in the loader to spread and rought in pretty close even closer with a 4 in 1 then would bring in the old grader to blue top. Huntsville AL was built with a track laoder lol . My friends also have a straight blade that we un pin the becket an put it in lpace , just like a straights blade on an old machine it does good for rouging in jobs and such. They have a TD20 dozer and 2 mor smaller machines smoetimes though its the only one free at the moment. Undercarrige wise you might go with Berco they make alot of aftermarket tracks, motor parts any Komatsu dealer that carries resser or Dressta parts will have them. Dressta si a polish company that makes Dresser machines from Stawola Poland They still make the 515 wheel loader and compactor and a 175 and 250 Craweler loaders. Last recolection they were the same as some of the older machines.

 

[jinman]

My concern is that if you build these ponds, will the bottom pond get any water? or will the upper ponds catch it all???

Eddie, you have to live here through a very wet year to appreciate what I'm trying to do. Both of my existing small ponds get overwhelmed with water when there are rain storms dropping 3" or more. Several storms over a week can really put a lot of water through my two ponds because of the drainage. I've included a topo map attachment that shows basically where I want to build ponds and catch some of the drainage. My 22 acres is outlined in red.

The largest pond I'm planning is fed by the surrounding hillsides and the only pond I'm worried about keeping full is the highest pond that would be fed by drainage from the hillside right around my house. That one will have to have terraces to redirect water flow. It would also be the easier one to fill in if it won't hold enough water. There's also a natural basin very close to where your dad parked his motorhome that could be easily converted to a pond. I wanted to fill it and make it a garden, but I'm having more and more trouble deciding how to do that as I begin planning.

As I find out how much dirt I have available, I'm sure I'll make some changes, but right now I'm more worried about the highest pond than the lower ones.

 

[jinman]

Trackloaders are kind of an all around machine, when I was little I lived partrime in Huntsville Alabama with dad on construction sites. Most smaller companies had a dump truck track loader and a grader. they loaded fill dirt with the loader and hauled to the site with the truch then brought in the loader to spread and rought in pretty close even closer with a 4 in 1 then would bring in the old grader to blue top. Huntsville AL was built with a track laoder lol .

Taylor, I'm still thinking about a track loader for my primary machine, but I was just too afraid of that IH 250C to spend that much money on it at this time of year and when the stock market is so volatile (mostly down). I really need to wait for some real estate to sell before buying equipment. I'm getting too old to be crawling under a dozer to fix it and that means I need something I can get somebody else to work on if needed. That leads me to believe I need to concentrate on newer Cats, Deeres, or Case equipment. I might buy another brand if it looks really well maintained, but I'm trying to concentrate my searches on the big 3.

 

[EddieWalker]

Jim,

Have you looked at the Equipment Trader? I was just browsing through local listings and saw a few track loaders.

Equipment for sale near Tyler, Texas

Eddie

 

[jinman]

Jim,

Have you looked at the Equipment Trader? I was just browsing through local listings and saw a few track loaders.

Equipment for sale near Tyler, Texas

Eddie

Yeah, I look at Equipment Trader, Machinery Trader, and any other place I can find in local papers, but I can't really afford to buy the machine I want until after the first of next year. I was considering this 250C because it was much less than $10k, but next year I can afford something in the $30k to $40k range which should get me a much better machine. I'm also considering finding a dump truck too for all the dirt I'll be moving.