Comparison LS XR4145 or TYM T454? Anyone test drive both?

[George2615]

Thanks!!! I'm heading over to Ignacio to test drive an xr4150. Its shuttle too, but I'll see if he has a hydro. I thought LS had auto throttle and cruise on the 41xx tractors with hydro...

They do have cruise but they don't have auto throttle that I know of..

 

[Fallon]

They do have cruise but they don't have auto throttle that I know of..

Correct, both have cruise control, but not auto throttle. The TYM had a rocker to increase/decrease speed & as it has a servo controled HST, I'm assuming it ties in with the electronics there. I THINK the LS is just a hit your target speed & set the cruise type setup. I'm guessing it essentially just holds the HST pedal in a fixed position. I didn't mess with either cruise control at all, so I can't tell how well they worked or gain much insight into how it worked based on using it. I want to say the cabbed LS had cruise as well, but that doesn't make sense as that was a shuttle. You just put it in the right gear then set the throttle for cruise there. So don't rely on my memory for the specifics on that.

 

[blb078]

The 29.5k price for the 40hp seems high by about 1-2k depending on where you are. Just bought a 4150hc and got a lot of options but the way the ticket was written up was 29.4k for the 50hp so you may have a little room there or have them add in an implement or something. I was in the same situation as you when looking at the JD and Kubota, are they worth 10k more? In my mind they are not. LS also makes some of the Case Farmall compacts too like they do NH both of them are the same as the 3000/4000 series LS using the Shibura engine and they use different loaders. LS seems to be trying to make a good foot print into the compact/utility tractor market here which is also good for parts/service later on if needed.

 

[1stDeuce]

Must be I learned about auto throttle when I was more centered on Kioti, and a smaller tractor. It would have been easy to add to an LS, or any newer tractor for that matter. Just need another sensor for throttle, or a linkage to the foot feed for the hydrostat...

 

[Fallon]

Must be I learned about auto throttle when I was more centered on Kioti, and a smaller tractor. It would have been easy to add to an LS, or any newer tractor for that matter. Just need another sensor for throttle, or a linkage to the foot feed for the hydrostat...

I think the LS is a mechanical throttle, unlike Kubota, JD & TYM. Would be hard to impossible to easily add if so. Makes me wonder why TYM doesn't have it though.

 

[1stDeuce]

No, the LS 31xx and 41xx series tractors with LS engines are Delphi Common Rail, so definitely electrically controlled. The 41xx tractors even have a switch driven engine PTO speed system, where you program in an rpm, and then engage it by switch w/o touching the throttles...

I drove a HST XR3037 this morning. It works pretty neat. (My first drive in anything HST!) It goes when you push the pedals, and stops almost immediately when you release. In low and med range, it was very capable and easy to control. I was on a slight grade, and bumpy ground, and high wasn't so ideal. I think it must be more of a road speed. I'm sure using the correct range for the task is important, and med seemed about right for most use. I was surprised that it would skid the tires if you were moving with a lot of pedal, and released it quickly. I expected a lot of roll, but there was really none. It was also nice that the brake pedals were on the left, so you could actually use them. Seems I've seen a few HST's with brakes on the right, which means you can only use the brake if your foot is off the HST pedal(s).

I was also impressed with the size of the XR3037. It's a pretty big tractor!! It also has the steering ram behind the front axle, but only has one ram, with a tie rod to the other side. The tie rod is in front of the axle...

I also drove a XR4150 TLB. It was REALLY nice!! The only negative I could come up with is that the shuttle lever is kinda short, and doesn't move back when you tilt the wheel back. You have to kinda lean forward to shift it, and being so short, you have to push kinda hard on it. I got used to it quickly just messing around in the yard, so probably just different than the MF I've run, not necessarily bad... I also noticed that the front tires (AG) rubbed the loader mount a bit at full lock in both directions. You could see the rub marks, and hear the treads going "fup fup fup" as they snagged and let go. Wonder if the Ind tires do that too?

 

[1stDeuce]

Oh, and the loader will curl and lift at the same time, but with the empty bucket, it's easier to curl than lift, so you get more curl action than lift. I wonder if you had something in the bucket if it might lift faster and curl slower. Anyway, it can do both, it's just a matter of it doing the one that takes less hyd pressure I think. It also would dump and lower at the same time, etc. I think the tractor Fallon checked was just a bit more sticky on the lift, so he may have only got curl... ??? I wonder how other mfg's get both at the same rate regardless of load, if they do??

 

[George2615]

I drove a HST XR3037 this morning. It works pretty neat. (My first drive in anything HST!) It goes when you push the pedals, and stops almost immediately when you release. In low and med range, it was very capable and easy to control. I was on a slight grade, and bumpy ground, and high wasn't so ideal. I think it must be more of a road speed. I'm sure using the correct range for the task is important, and med seemed about right for most use. I was surprised that it would skid the tires if you were moving with a lot of pedal, and released it quickly. I expected a lot of roll, but there was really none. It was also nice that the brake pedals were on the left, so you could actually use them. Seems I've seen a few HST's with brakes on the right, which means you can only use the brake if your foot is off the HST pedal(s).

I was also impressed with the size of the XR3037. It's a pretty big tractor!! It also has the steering ram behind the front axle, but only has one ram, with a tie rod to the other side. The tie rod is in front of the axle...

I also drove a XR4150 TLB. It was REALLY nice!! The only negative I could come up with is that the shuttle lever is kinda short, and doesn't move back when you tilt the wheel back. You have to kinda lean forward to shift it, and being so short, you have to push kinda hard on it. I got used to it quickly just messing around in the yard, so probably just different than the MF I've run, not necessarily bad... I also noticed that the front tires (AG) rubbed the loader mount a bit at full lock in both directions. You could see the rub marks, and hear the treads going "fup fup fup" as they snagged and let go. Wonder if the Ind tires do that too?

They probably do rub. The 4150 uses larger tires than the 3037 and I suspect the loader frame on both is very similar. R4's on my 3037 only come within 2" of the loader frame but the 4150 R4's are 12-16.5 compared to 25x8.5-14 on the 3037.
Loader does curl and lift as you noted but curls faster than lift. Just a matter of getting used to it. Lift speeds up with RPM and pump speed but so does curl.

 

[1stDeuce]

Interesting... So I wonder if putting on curl cyl's with bigger bore would slow down curl... And give more curl strength, which I've seen a few complain about in general... I only ran them at about 1300rpm, but loader performance seemed OK to me, as far as speed goes... Comparable to the MF1533 anyway... I did notice that the dump gets ahead, and there's some "flop" as a result, so perhaps the flow limiter some have added would solidify the loader... Do other brands come with flow limiters or what??

I am going to call back Monday and see just how far he'll come down on the 4150... I really only want a 4140, but he'd have to order one in, and he's been sitting on this 4150 since April... And he said he'd pull the backhoe if I'll buy the tractor... His initial quote on the 4150 w/o bh is ~$3500 higher than I can get a 4140 for. I'll have to shop around some more this week...

 

[Fallon]

The HST can be mechanically controlled instead of electronically controlled regardless of whether the engine is mechanically controlled or electronically controlled.

To do the auto throttle, you kind of need both engine & HST to be electronically controlled. You could do it, but it would be a bit harder to have it balance go pedal with throttle as it adjusts.

 

[1stDeuce]

Oh, you were saying the HST is mechanical... I see now. Seems like it could still be made to work... More pedal, more throttle. It's not that difficult, but a fail for LS in not doing it... I tend to drive the shuttle tractors like a car anyway, setting hand throttle to ~1250rpm's and then using the foot feed to move things along faster. (Loader work...)

If I end up with an HST, it's a whole new ball game, but i can see me linking the forward pedal to an engine speed feed too... it shouldn't be that hard, since the non-hst has two inputs, one hand and one foot. If I add the foot rheostat, and then link it to the hst pedal, voila...

Of course this is all theory, as I don't even own a tractor yet, but I'm working on it...
I honestly find myself starting to wish the 3135 had a "large tire" option... It's a pretty big tractor to begin with, and with a bit larger tires, would be pretty decent...

 

[1stDeuce]

Blue - Out, Red - In ??

Well, most recent update in my quest... I am not getting a good price on the XR4150 TLB that's local, and I don't really care for the LS 7' backhoe anyway... TYM T454 is out for not having a turbo, which is a significant handicap at 7500'. The T554 is turbo, but comparable in price to the XR4150, which is still higher than I like.

One of the dealers I called at lunch pointed me toward Branson. Specifically the 4520R. I kinda thought Branson was a gimmicky off brand, but after some surfing, there seems to be as much history with Branson as with LS...

The 4020R is a turbo, and seems very comparable to the XR4140 that I am supposedly getting quoted locally... Loader specs for lift are a bit better on the LS (+300lbs breakout, +600lbs to full ht), but lift height is 9" higher on the Branson, which I an see being useful in lifting beams to build my house. I don't see me wanting to lift 2700lbs to full height anyway, so 2100lbs is probably plenty. Branson also offers an 8'6" BH made by Ansung, which out-powers the LS hoe by quite a bit, and for the same price. (~$6500)

This dealer carries LS too, and quoted me 24k for a XR4140, which is a bit high IMO, but only $21,500 for the 4020R... BH's both run $6500. So the Branson is $28,500 out the door (includes $500 remote kit to run the BH) while the LS is $30,500 for a comparable tractor with a smaller, less powerful BH.

On the engine side, I'm told Branson uses a DOC instead of a DPF, so no regens at all. They do recommend you run the tractor at higher RPM's when possible, but evidently the DOC just gets replaced if it starts to clog. (Supposedly ~1000hrs.) If that happens in under 5 years, it's covered by the warranty as mandated by EPA regulations. If not, I'll probably look at just gutting it, or drilling some holes all the way through it, since there's no regen to muck up. (Shhhh, don't tell the EPA...) I was also told that the Branson is a mechanically controlled engine, rather than Common Rail like most of the others, so no computer to mess with. My guess is it's a bit more rattly, but I can deal with that.

I'm thinking seriously about this 4020R... $28,500 TLB... BH is already set for mech thumb, which is $300 from Branson, probably cheaper online.

Seems like not much left to think about... Time to post some ?'s to the Branson forum I guess...

 

[blb078]

I looked at Branson too, not many dealers around here and none close. I think TYM bought out Branson also. One thing about the BH which was something I compared to between others is the LS BH is probably the easiest in the industry to get on/off. Pull two pins and that's it. Like anything there are positives and negatives to every brand. I figured the 7' bh was fine for me. If I or even you need to dig down for more than 7' then you need a different machine all together than a compact tractor BH. The loader height was a concern of mine too, however I figured 7" or even a foot isn't a make or break deal for me and I figured one scoop of dirt in the bucket will be enough to make a ramp if I need more height. I also think the loader bucket on the Branson is about half a foot smaller too than the LS. Branson being 67" vs 72" for the LS. To me none of these items are really make/break deals so go with whichever one you can get the best deal on. However I will say it seems odd your not worried about the extra loader lift capaticy of the LS but are worried about the BH. To me a more powerfull loader will come in more handy than a more powerfull BH. The LS power train warranty is also a year longer than Branson

 

[BlessedMess]

One thing about the BH which was something I compared to between others is the LS BH is probably the easiest in the industry to get on/off. Pull two pins and that's it. Like anything there are positives and negatives to every brand.

That was EXACTLY my observation -- how would I get this BH off and back on. I kind of stumbled on a little Branson dealer and nobody was around to answer questions. As you said, two pins and two hoses on the LS... easy enough that somebody dumb like me figured it out.

 

[1stDeuce]

I was really set on LS.

I'll have to check into the on/off of the Branson BH. I know it's subframe, and looks fairly simple, but I haven't seen one to know for sure how it attaches. I can't imagine it's that much different... It does have it's own hydraulic quick connects to the tractor, and doesn't use the remotes. And I can use the BH connections for a logsplitter too, which is nice, since the Branson doesn't come standard with remotes.

I'll be using the BH in pretty hard clay and rock, and it's got quite a bit more digging force than the LS... LS only gives the bucket dig force of 2673lbs, while the 7' and 8' Branson hoes are at about 4500... That's a LOT of difference in prying out big rocks, or breaking up hard clay... I didn't realize the bucket was ~6" narrower, but that probably won't be an issue either, and may help with breaking hard soil. Good point on the 8' vs 7'... I may opt to save $1000 and go with the 7', since it has similar dig forces to the 8'.

Unless I buy Kubota or JD, there are no dealers nearby for any other brands. So the simpler design of the Branson seems appealing so I can do my own work... I was planning the same with the LS, and considered it simple too. Both the LS dealer and the Branson dealer say not a problem to work out small warranty repairs, though I'd still have to take either tractor to them for major repairs... Perhaps I'll open a dealer in Cortez once I get up and running.

I haven't ruled out the LS yet... I could always opt out of the LS hoe and pick up an Ansung 760 or 860 instead, which is what actually comes on the Branson... Probably be the cheapest route, though I'd have to make the sub-frame. (Not a big deal to me...)

I also heard that the Branson loader controls don't have regen, so only handle one function at a time... I know I can cross the controls on the LS and it'll lift and curl at the same time, but it's slow, and it chooses which it does based on ease of doing it... I'm not sure how often I'd use that anyway. (I assume because I can do both, that the LS does have regen in the bucket valves?)

Decisions, decisions... We just countered the counter offer on our piece of land, so luckily I have some time...
Thanks for any and all info that helps me make an informed decision. I should admit that I've yet to actually climb on a Branson, while I did drive and LS, and aside from having to reach for the Shuttle shifter, which doesn't tilt back with the wheel it was really nice.

 

[blb078]

Let me ask you this? Why you are so hung up on these BH numbers? Remember you're buying a compact tractor not a mini excavator. That tractor regardless of what the numbers say is only going to allow you to do so much. Go check out the Kubota thread and see what they do with those little BX backhoes, quite a bit you will be able to do that a little more but you wont be able to compete with a mini ex in anyway which it seems like that's what you are trying to do. They can put a 5000lb lift capacity at max height on the loader but unless you bolt a 1970 Buick to the back of you wont be able to do anything or it will flip over. So don't get caught up in the numbers game on these things as it will drive you crazy. The LS is 2k more but in my mind you get way more than 2k more in value. 1 year extra power train warranty, 2 rear remotes, slight larger bucket on the loader. Those to me are worth more than 2k and a better BH.

 

[BlessedMess]

The other nice thing on LS (XU anyway) is the lift arms stay on without modification when mounting the BH. The Branson's arms looked like they had been folded back vertically as if on a hinge? Maybe it is easy? The Kubota TLB (L47) has a formidable BH, for example, but arms have to be removed entirely when the BH is mounted. More steps = inconvenience and time.

Sorta OT: Did a lot of BH work in relatively confined spaces -- close to steep slopes, house, trees/bamboo, etc. on 2-3 sides -- and found the length of loader + tractor + BH + safe working space was problematic. Even with 7-8' of digging depth/reach and 180 degrees to work with, had to move the tractor a lot to dig a little then repeat. In an unobstructed space it worked great, but can now see why single purpose machines like mini ex's (and tractors without backhoes) sometimes make more sense than ones that try to do it all. Just be sure to have realistic expectations and expect some patience building exercises if your jobs are anything like mine were...

 

[1stDeuce]

So my tractor's first jobs will be site prep for building our house. BH will be used for removing stumps, trenching in utilities, septic, and probably having a go at digging a basement and a hole for the cistern. I know its not a mini ex, but the more BH, the easier those tasks will be... or so it seems to me... we'll also be building a 800' driveway and pad for the garage, and fixing up the road some too... and the ground has a fairly high clay content.... I think a 4140 would do just as well, and I still may go that direction...

 

[BlessedMess]

I agree -- you'll definitely need a serious backhoe, and as your soil is described, a combination of good weather and chunk of seat time to get all that done. Not trying to discourage from Branson or DIY, but if it were my same project there are 2 options I would explore with the benefit of "hindsight experience":

1) Buy whatever tractor I liked as a tractor first and use fixed budget to first buy a good variety of 3PH implements, then plow/grade/spread/mark off. After that would rent a decent sized excavator (prefer. with two buckets -- narrow trenching and wider material handling) along with a dump trailer so that all my footer, basement, and other non-backfill spoil + trash like big rocks and stumps could be dug/moved once straight into the dump bed. The tractor would be used to tow the dump trailer to wherever the excavator is and then to the dump spot(s), and may help backfill trenches faster. Implement preferences for stated soil conditions and projects: HD box blade, landscape rake, maybe a land leveler or tiller depending on future value. Also, by accident discovered a good used chisel plow is awesome for "virgin" soil projects and annual garden work -- the shanks are spring loaded and won't get hung up on subterranean rocks, roots, etc. like a fixed tooth will, and actually bring many of the hidden brick-sized rocks/roots/old PVC pipes/etc. to surface for raking and disposal. Highly recommend.

2) Contract out the major site prep, stump removal & trenching, and use tractor to spread driveway gravel and finish grade/cleanup to your satisfaction.

A new compact or even a utility sized XU tractor is going to feel old fast doing this much backhoe work in difficult soil, and put a lot of major wear on something you'll want to keep a long time. For trenching utilities and septic lines the excavator can be effortlessly repositioned, whereas you'll be constantly getting on/off the tractor and BH to reposition. Further, the 360-degree swing and extra reach/bucket capacity on the basement dig will be a HUGE time saver for all that spoil (esp. if using a dump trailer). I'm not a professional so this may all be poor information, but definitely learned a lot over past two years, including equipment and operator limitations.

 

[1stDeuce]

Thanks for the advice. I have a suspicion that things will workout more like you suggest than like I plan them in my head...