Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth?

   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #61  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( That woulda been the late '60s, for anyone counting )</font>

Nineteen sixtys..?

OK, I promised to stop!
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #62  
What a read! Lots of good advice & some technical background.
My 2 cents : Diesels are made to RUN. Lugging any engine (gas or diesel) should be avoided. Idleing for extended periods is hard on diesels for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they will typically run too cool.
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #63  
Another angle I don't recall seing covered in this thread.

What tould be the differences in impact of lugging a turbo diesel vs Non Turbo. It seems that the negative effects of lugging would be more pronounced on one than the other. Maybe the turbo ? As it would not get enough lubrication ? Not sure, but it seems that there must be a difference there.

Ben
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth?
  • Thread Starter
#64  
Since you've got the question part of this thread up and going again, I'll re-ask the question in my last post that never got answered.

I've got to stop hiding my questions way down in the post (like I am doing again this time ) but at least the question will be in blue. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If using the throttle definition of lugging, then hydrostatic tractors uniquely have the ability to approach the lugging issue from the other side. Example... a geared tractor will very seldom have a gear that perfectly equalizes a load with the maximum output of the engine. Gear 4 might be too low and engine lugs (using the throttle definition), but gear 3 not lugging and engine is able to speed up if more throttle is applied. In contrast to that, an HST tractor could be at full operating engine speed and mowing with a RFM. The HST peddle could be depressed and you are mowing along at a given speed. If your forward speed was any faster then engine cant handle it and loses RPM. HST has effectively given you the ability to equalize the forward speed and balance right on the threshold of being overloaded (and not able to speed up if you give it more throttle), but on the same token it is not losing ground either.

How would you guys classify this type of usage? This is typically how I mow when I use my RFM. Go as absolutely fast as I can without bogging down the engine.... but it sure wouldn't speed up in RPM if I gave it any more throttle. )</font>
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #65  
Getut,
From what I picked up in this thread, compiled from pieces of various posts, I would say that you are on the verge of lugging if not lugging. I would think you need a little bit of headroom on the throttle. I do know that the way you are describing will be likely to cause a tractor to overheat if it is going to overheat at all.

btw,
No one seemed to answer my question of whether it was worse to lug a diesel designed for 3600 RPM vs one designed for 2200 RPM.

oh well...

Ben
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #66  
I would think worse for a low rpm engine due to oil film. The 3600 would lug at higher rpm as it has a higher torque curve. Exceptions would be large main/rod journal machines. I've maintained and rebuilt deisels that had 340rpm max, but the main bearings you could crawl through and rod bearings would fit over your head. Still be a problem for both with liner wash and carbon depositing.
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #67  
Lugging any modern (post about 1950ish) engine is not a good idea. Most engines now are protected against inadequate oil flow by always pumping more oil (oil gauge maxed out) at anything above idle. However, water flow is still a strong function of engine speed because the water pump is driven by a belt on most engines, proportional to engine speed. It's possible that you could get local hot spots around the combustion chamber areas in lugging situations that could adversely affect engine life.

My Dad once bought a stick shift Plymouth car from my Grandpa. Grandpa was ALWAYS lugging the engine. The car's engine bearings went out right after Dad got it.

On Italian engines, it was extremely critical not to lug them, because their oil flow was a strong function of engine rpm, as they did not design them for much more flow than needed(takes engine hp to drive that pump).

Ralph
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #68  
I believe the actual cause of engine lugging is largely irrelevant. Whether from too low engine rpm to do "X" amount of work, moving to fast do do "X" amount of work, or just doing too much "X"!.
That said... from your description of mowing as fast as you can before the rpm's drop off may not really be lugging the motor anyway. My HST drops off rpms quick in high range (road travel) and I do not feel that the engine is lugging, but I will still back off the pedal anyway till the rpms come up.
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #69  
Some terminology might help first.

To me, the HST pedal position is not "Throttle". The HST pedal is more of a continuously variable gear shift. The more you push the pedal, the higher the gear ratio.

That lever that you move to change RPM's is not exactly the throttle, either. Its actually a governer setpoint. It sets the desired RPM's. The governer mechanism constantly adjusts the actual throttle position to try and maintain the set RPM's.

The actual throttle is the thing that controls how much air and fuel goes into the engine. Its usually a butterfly plate in the carburator. As explained above, it is controlled by the governer.

Whenever the governer has the throttle at any position other than full open and is still able to maintain the set RPM's, the engine is not putting out full power.

Whenever the governer has the throttle all the way open, its because it cannot maintain the set RPM's at any less throttle position.

If you put the setpoint at a lower RPM and then load the engine down until the governer has the throttle full open, its the same situation as if you had the setpoint at full RPM's and then loaded the engine down until it reached full throttle and lugged down to the lower RPM's. Either way, you are at full throttle at some less than max RPM.

Another issue - all governer mechanisms have some slight droop. They have to drop a few RPM's to get the throttle to open. So, under load, it is normal for the RPM's to drop slightly. This does not mean the engine is "lugging down" - its just normal governer droop. You can easily notice this when you run the RPM's up to PTO speed and then engage a PTO implement like a finish mower. The RPM's drop maybe 50 to 100 or so.

Now lets throw the HST pedal back into the mix. At a given setpoint on the governer, we will have some throttle position to produce enough power to maintain the set RPM's. We now depress the pedal, increasing the gear ratio, and thus increasing the torque requirement on the engine. To maintain RPM's, the governer opens the throttle. So, the HST pedal does indirectly affect the throttle, but it is not a direct relationship.

Sometimes, the HST pedal effects the engine RPM's very little. Rolling at constant speed on a flat, hard surface, there is very little additional power required to roll along at 8 MPH instead of 3 MPH.

Pulling a heavy implement up a hill, or mowing through thick grass, the increase in HST pedal ratio and thus ground speed can make a huge difference in power required. At that higher "ratio", the engine lugs down. Pressing the pedal just cranks up the ratio even higher, making the problem even worse when the right answer is to let up on the pdel, shifting to a lower gear ratio to climb that hill and maintain engine rpm's with the governer just kissing full-open throttle.

The JD load-match system attempts to control the HST ratio to make it more like a throttle pedal in some cicumstances. by backing off the ratio when the throttle hits full open.

It would be even cooler if the pedal itself had some feedback - maybe resistance to being pushed in proportion to throttle position with a hard stop when the actual throttle maxed out.
 
   / Lugging diesels = bad or newfangled myth? #70  
No motor should be lugged. That means gas or deisel. It is not good for them and will cause wear by putting much more strain on the lower end of the motor.
 

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