Maine land timber value?

[Piper2022]

I am in the market for a large parcel of land in southern Maine. I just walked a large plot that is in the process of being cut.

I know this is a very open ended question but what sort of value can the property owner expect to get paid per acre for a mixed hard and soft wood forest thinning. I know it depends on many variables(number of trees, size and species of trees, access to the property, etc). I am going to be negotiating price with the landowner and I want to know roughy what he might have got paid for the timber. Like are we talking $100/acre or more like $500/acre.

Anyone care to chime in, I am just looking for a rough assumption here.

Thanks

 

[dave1949]

I received ~$3250 for 15 acres of chip harvest clear cut @$4/ton last July. That's $216/acre. It wasn't a good stand by any means. I would say that is about the worst he could do as a baseline and depending on what is there, he could be getting a lot more.

I don't know the current going rate per ton for chips though. But assuming a stand with more volume, a lower rate per ton could be offset for the per acre return.

If you are buying land for timber investment, I would hire a forester to help determine the residual stand value and potential future harvest schedule. For income tax purposes you will eventually need to determine your timber basis value at the time of purchase.

 

[Jstpssng]

It depends on how much land you're talking about, how long it's been since the last harvest, how hard you want to have it cut.
when you say a thinning I assume that you're talking about mostly pulpwood... rough assumption, 100-200$/acre.

On the other hand if you have time to cut it yourself using my same assumptions, you can make about 500-1000$/acre cutting the same trees.

Here is the latest stumpage report put out by the Maine Forest Service, based on 2013 prices. hopefully it will give you some assistance. http://www.maine.gov/tools/whatsnew/attach.php?id=626875&an=1

You also could contact the state forester for the area you're looking at District Foresters: Forest Policy and Management: Division of Forestry: Maine ACF.
(I highly recommend this to anybody who is considering a harvest)

 

[dmccarty]

It depends on how much land you're talking about, how long it's been since the last harvest, how hard you want to have it cut.
when you say a thinning I assume that you're talking about mostly pulpwood... rough assumption, 100-200$/acre.

On the other hand if you have time to cut it yourself using my same assumptions, you can make about 500-1000$/acre cutting the same trees.

Here is the latest stumpage report put out by the Maine Forest Service, based on 2013 prices. hopefully it will give you some assistance. http://www.maine.gov/tools/whatsnew/attach.php?id=626875&an=1

You also could contact the state forester for the area you're looking at District Foresters: Forest Policy and Management: Division of Forestry: Maine ACF.
(I highly recommend this to anybody who is considering a harvest)

In NC, the state has a phone number, and I think now a website, that shows previous quarterly sale prices for timber. This was done by regions across the state so one could get a decent feel for prices. What one also needs is the price trends, are prices rising or falling?

Jstpssng's links should get you started and hopefully you can find more information. Timber prices are certainly location sensitive and depend on the tree species, size, and local market. At a minimum, the local state forester should have an idea of the state of the market.

Down here, prices are not calculated by the acre but the thousand board feet(MBF) I could work out what we were paid per acre but it would be an iffy number because one area was thick with mature pines while the rest was mostly hardwood. Hardwood and pine were the same price per MBF but you get far more MBF per acre with pine than hardwood.

I don't know of a source that tracts the timber acreage vs price. Maybe the state forester will have a guess/source.

Later,
Dan

 

[Country Geek]

In NC, the state has a phone number, and I think now a website, that shows previous quarterly sale prices for timber. This was done by regions across the state so one could get a decent feel for prices. What one also needs is the price trends, are prices rising or falling?

In NC the way smaller landowners usually sell timber is by selling a timber deed to a forestry company. These deeds are recorded at the courthouse like any other deeds so you can go look them up. That's probably where the office Dan is talking about gets the pricing.

The timber deed gives the buyer the right to come and take the timber at any time during the life of the deed (usually 1 year IIRC). So if you sell a timber deed and then the market for timber collapses and the buyer doesn't take the timber in time, you got free money. OTOH if you sell a timber deed and then the price of timber skyrockets, the buyer of your deed makes out like a bandit.

So you know what you'll get for your timber and sometimes you lose, sometimes you win.

 

[newbury]

I am in the market for a large parcel of land in southern Maine. I just walked a large plot that is in the process of being cut.

I know this is a very open ended question but what sort of value can the property owner expect to get paid per acre for a mixed hard and soft wood forest thinning. I know it depends on many variables(number of trees, size and species of trees, access to the property, etc). I am going to be negotiating price with the landowner and I want to know roughy what he might have got paid for the timber. Like are we talking $100/acre or more like $500/acre.

Anyone care to chime in, I am just looking for a rough assumption here.

Thanks

If you are thinning for $$ now (taking the good trees) I'd expect about at most a couple hundred. If you are thinning for future growth much less. If you have a large plot (several hundred acres or more) the logger can spend more time there with his equipment.

However in mixed stands of regrowth you often get a lot of "scrub trees". It might be much more cost effective to have it clearcut for pulp and replant for what you want. Sort of an "economy of scale"

In NC the way smaller landowners usually sell timber is by selling a timber deed to a forestry company. These deeds are recorded at the courthouse like any other deeds so you can go look them up. That's probably where the office Dan is talking about gets the pricing.

The timber deed gives the buyer the right to come and take the timber at any time during the life of the deed (usually 1 year IIRC). So if you sell a timber deed and then the market for timber collapses and the buyer doesn't take the timber in time, you got free money. OTOH if you sell a timber deed and then the price of timber skyrockets, the buyer of your deed makes out like a bandit.

So you know what you'll get for your timber and sometimes you lose, sometimes you win.

That's why the process is a gamble. We've one lot that's been sold twice and they haven't taken the timber off one section. You ALWAYS get what you were willing to sell it for, but may miss out on upward price spikes.

Right now in Mississippi hardwood pulpwood is going pretty good.
View attachment timber2014.pdf

/edit -
And another thing - there is a move for the big box stores to buy lumber FIRST from "qualified" or "certified" forests. That means if you have a minimal approved forest management plan and you want to sell your timber you may have some advantage over someone who doesn't. Similar to veterans preference points in federal government hiring. My local state forester did mine.

 

[dave1949]

birdman2447: Are you considering a purchase while a harvest is underway? That seems more complicated in many ways than I would want as an individual buyer.

 

[Garandman]

Our NH house was logged in the 1980's by a local with a poor reputation. He took all the valuable trees, left trails with deep ruts all over the place, left tops, branches and cuts all over the place, but at least he got paid. I know a number of folks who have had loggers take off lumber who never paid them or underpaid them, including my Brother In Law in Vermont.

I hired a local logger who also owns property in the area to take down some large trees near the house. He walked some of the property with me and advised what to do if I wanted to develop marketable trees. What's left now are some large old trees in rough shape, and a bunch of scrub.

 

[dave1949]

Our NH house was logged in the 1980's by a local with a poor reputation. He took all the valuable trees, left trails with deep ruts all over the place, left tops, branches and cuts all over the place, but at least he got paid. I know a number of folks who have had loggers take off lumber who never paid them or underpaid them, including my Brother In Law in Vermont.

I hired a local logger who also owns property in the area to take down some large trees near the house. He walked some of the property with me and advised what to do if I wanted to develop marketable trees. What's left now are some large old trees in rough shape, and a bunch of scrub.

That's a fairly common condition unfortunately. We bought our lot at the end of 2003. It had been cut pretty hard in 2000. I wouldn't say the logger was a timber liquidator exactly, but he bought a parcel that hadn't been cut in many years, took the good stuff and eventually sold the land to us after holding it long enough to avoid liquidation status.

As far as condition, they left things in reasonable shape, seed trees, not very many ruts were cut and the skidder tree wounds were limited to the lanes they used and not horrible. But, what's left is going to take many years before it is worth harvesting again. It amounts to even-aged high-grading I suppose.

What's lacking is going back in and making some stand improvement cuts. Taking out the poor species, poor examples of desirable species and releasing the good crop trees. We are talking near a lifetime of work off and on with no real net income resulting. I'm 65 years-old, how does that work? It doesn't unless I have kids who will carry on and ultimately benefit.

It's a shame but once a wood lot is allowed to get run down it takes a long time and plenty of low-paying effort to reverse that. Like many recent land buyers according to the surveys, we are more interested in conservation values than timber production. There is no reason those two goals can't co-exist. I'm not sure how things can change for the better, especially with declining markets and disappearing paper mills.

 

[Jstpssng]

That's a fairly common condition unfortunately. We bought our lot at the end of 2003. It had been cut pretty hard in 2000. I wouldn't say the logger was a timber liquidator exactly, but he bought a parcel that hadn't been cut in many years, took the good stuff and eventually sold the land to us after holding it long enough to avoid liquidation status.

As far as condition, they left things in reasonable shape, seed trees, not very many ruts were cut and the skidder tree wounds were limited to the lanes they used and not horrible. But, what's left is going to take many years before it is worth harvesting again. It amounts to even-aged high-grading I suppose.

What's lacking is going back in and making some stand improvement cuts. Taking out the poor species, poor examples of desirable species and releasing the good crop trees. We are talking near a lifetime of work off and on with no real net income resulting. I'm 65 years-old, how does that work? It doesn't unless I have kids who will carry on and ultimately benefit.

It's a shame but once a wood lot is allowed to get run down it takes a long time and plenty of low-paying effort to reverse that. Like many recent land buyers according to the surveys, we are more interested in conservation values than timber production. There is no reason those two goals can't co-exist. I'm not sure how things can change for the better, especially with declining markets and disappearing paper mills.

One of the most frustrating things I see is that people wait too long to do anything, instead letting their woodlot stagnate, when they should be creating openings for new trees to grow. While mills are dying off in this state [\b] the demand for fibre is strong... In fact one of my biggest concerns is that our low timberland prices are an incentive for people to buy strictly for the land, never visit it ( like one of my neighbors who I have never met)... and let the trees rot into the ground, whereas the same land was once used to produce timber and jobs.

I'll stop now, before I shift into "rant" mode.

 

[forgeblast]

In PA our Department of Ag has a forester on staff that will come out and have a look at our property and help develop plans....I would also see if its worth the money to hire a forester when they do the cut to make sure its cut the way you want.

 

[dmccarty]

In PA our Department of Ag has a forester on staff that will come out and have a look at our property and help develop plans....I would also see if its worth the money to hire a forester when they do the cut to make sure its cut the way you want.

This is or was true in NC. It just will take a while to get a visit since so many people partake of the service. I did my own timber management plan for tax valuations and the tax office said it better than what they usually receive. :shocked:

If one sells timber, I would highly recommend a timber agent to run the sale. For saw logs, they should cruise the property to id each tree, it's size, species, and board feet. They should also advertize the sale, prepare the sales document based on the inventory generated from the cruise, and protect the landowner. The agents work on a percentage basis just like real estate agents.

We did very well from our timber sale, partly luck because of market timing but also because I did my homework. I know some really smart people who have been ripped off big time from selling timber. It is just not something most people are familiar with and one can get burned.

Later,
Dan

 

[Carl_NH]

In PA our Department of Ag has a forester on staff that will come out and have a look at our property and help develop plans....I would also see if its worth the money to hire a forester when they do the cut to make sure its cut the way you want.

That's exactly what I did on our acreage in PA then hired a forester to evaluate the trees - the same forester my father used to harvest 30 years ago on the property. We have primarily black cherry and that gets a premium most of the time depending on markets.

Basically loggers want the best trees and leave the undesirables and the same as Dan stated above, a forester manages the woodlot and puts it out to bid as I intend to do in another 5-8 years based on market demand and prices.

To the original poster - if they are doing a thinning or select cut, then it may be viable to cut again in 15 years, but usually its every 25-30 years between harvesting. Again depending on the trees and size/shape it could range from 250-700 or more, so $500 an acre would be middle ground I would think.

 

[Piper2022]

Thanks for the input guys, so the exact story with the land is a follows:

There's is close to 1000 acres but not all of it is for sale. The land is currently being cut and once the loggers finished a portion of it will be for sale. It's a mixed growth forest with about 30% soft wood and the remainder hard wood(a lot of oak). The loggers appear to be treading as lightly as the can but since they are cutting pretty much everything 8" and larger the land looks pretty bare.

 

[dave1949]

Based on timberland value alone after that type of harvest it probably isn't really worth more than $450-$550 per acre. I notice a lot of sellers try for $1000 per acre on large lots that have some current timber value. If it has internal improved roads, stream/water frontage or some other improvement that adds to the price but of course by how much varies greatly. You didn't say what your goal in owning the land would be.

It will be good grouse, deer, turkey land for the next 10-15 years if you like to hunt. After a hard cut and forest floor disturbance is when invasive pest plants can get started easy. If it is reasonably well drained with good soils, sort of level and/or some good south-facing slopes, then with some forestry tending it can become a good timber stand again.

If you have forestry in mind, I would get a reading from a licensed forester. Assuming you are new to this type of land, SWOAM (Small Woodland Owners Association of Maine) is an excellent learning resource and they really do care about Maine's forestry future. Small Woodland Owners Association of Maine - resources and support for woodlot owners

Your area Maine Forest Service representative is also a good place for many things as a starting point. They don't do management plans and surveys themselves. Our area forester put me in touch with a local private forester suitable to my needs. The State Forester may not make specific recommendations but they will steer you in the right direction. :laughing:

District Foresters: Forest Policy and Management: Maine Forest Service: Maine ACF

This may be the Poland area forester:
Shane Duigan
356 Shaker Road
Gray ME 04039
Phone: 207-592-1251
Email: shane.p.duigan@maine.gov



This article about the nature of timberland ownership; aging owners, shrinking parcels, how to support long-term forestry, is relevant to your question about land value. Not a criticism of you, just a description of the trending state of things.
Experts fear for long-term health of U.S. forests - The Washington Post

 

[Oldpath05]

This might not be the right thread, but suppose I wanted to buy some northern white Cedar logs 8' 6", 6" on small end, or tree length, for sawing into lumber/boards, who what when where could I find someone that will, cut haul sell deliver me Cedar, at shall we say, a fair $$ ???.

 

[Piper2022]

Thanks for the info, I am going to talk to a Forster as see what sort of future the land holds after all the cutting is done.

I think we're on the same page with price. I see more and more plots of land for close to $1000/acre for land that is not the greatest. The number I had in my head was around $500-600 an acre. Unless the property has a lot of good road frontage or something then I feel like the owner can demand more. This piece of land has some frontage but not a ton. Most of the lot is really nice and hopefully this all works out as I am tired of seeing nice plots of land being torn up for subdivisions. But on the other hand I am not going to pay developers pricing for the land if that's what's the owner wants.

 

[dave1949]

Thanks for the info, I am going to talk to a Forster as see what sort of future the land holds after all the cutting is done.

I think we're on the same page with price. I see more and more plots of land for close to $1000/acre for land that is not the greatest. The number I had in my head was around $500-600 an acre. Unless the property has a lot of good road frontage or something then I feel like the owner can demand more. This piece of land has some frontage but not a ton. Most of the lot is really nice and hopefully this all works out as I am tired of seeing nice plots of land being torn up for subdivisions. But on the other hand I am not going to pay developers pricing for the land if that's what's the owner wants.

We don't have new development pressure here to speak of. I sit on the Industry town planning board; in 2-3 years we've only had one new house permit and that was replacing an old camp on the lake. Small primitive camps and cabins, additions now and then, but it is pretty quiet overall.

I'm not familiar with the Poland area, but in general the farther south and closer to Portland, large lots tend to be more rare I think. You probably see some influence from L-A in real estate. What is also fairly rare are the people who can afford (and want) to buy and own lots that are larger than 20-50 acres but smaller than what attracts serious timber investment. That works in your favor if you are looking at that size of lot.

Maybe Jstpssng will chime in with his knowledge regarding the forestry usefulness of 100-500 acre woodlots. I would guess ~500 acres is a threshold that makes on-going managed forestry most practical and attractive to good loggers, but that is only a raw guess. It depends on what is being harvested too.