Measuring fuel additives

[Bob_Young]

In my case the reason for the 2-cycle oil is to restore some of the lubricity lost when we switched to ULSD. There have been several Loooonng threads on this in some of the Cummins/Dodge forums with no detrimental effects noted. A side benefit was a supposed mileage improvement.

I actually didn't know about the ULSD switch when it occurred. Just noted that the old Dodge wasn't getting the mileage it used to...down to 22-23mpg from 25-26. And it seemed louder. This in spite of using PS White Bottle religiously.

Stumbled on the 2 cycle oil idea thanks to a link here at TBN and thought it worth a try; especially as the CTD is '94 vintage and not designed for ULSD. Dunno whether it's helping the pump or the injectors, but it sure helped mileage...for whatever reason. And it seems quieter. The Ford 4000, another golden oldy that probably needs help with ULSD, also got quieter with a little 2 cycle mixed in.

Confession: I am putting a little in the Kubotas as well, though they probably don't need it. No more than 3 oz./5 gal. Like the way it makes 'em purr.
Bob

 

[DrainPondDesign]

If I remember correctly Acetone will dissolve some gasketing materials that are gasoline proof (i.e. Permatex, gasket shellacs & tank sealants).

An unmixed high concentration of Acetone pooled somewhere in the fuel system might produce a problem.

Also I suspect that the BTU content of Acetone is lower than gasoline so it should produce lower HP & miles per gallon. Of course if you get it for free?

 

[Soundguy]

For regular use.. all things being equall.. I think I'd use power service.

Soundguy

In my case the reason for the 2-cycle oil is to restore some of the lubricity lost when we switched to ULSD. There have been several Loooonng threads on this in some of the Cummins/Dodge forums with no detrimental effects noted. A side benefit was a supposed mileage improvement.

I actually didn't know about the ULSD switch when it occurred. Just noted that the old Dodge wasn't getting the mileage it used to...down to 22-23mpg from 25-26. And it seemed louder. This in spite of using PS White Bottle religiously.

Stumbled on the 2 cycle oil idea thanks to a link here at TBN and thought it worth a try; especially as the CTD is '94 vintage and not designed for ULSD. Dunno whether it's helping the pump or the injectors, but it sure helped mileage...for whatever reason. And it seems quieter. The Ford 4000, another golden oldy that probably needs help with ULSD, also got quieter with a little 2 cycle mixed in.

Confession: I am putting a little in the Kubotas as well, though they probably don't need it. No more than 3 oz./5 gal. Like the way it makes 'em purr.
Bob

 

[patrick_g]

If I remember correctly Acetone will dissolve some gasketing materials that are gasoline proof (i.e. Permatex, gasket shellacs & tank sealants).

An unmixed high concentration of Acetone pooled somewhere in the fuel system might produce a problem.

Also I suspect that the BTU content of Acetone is lower than gasoline so it should produce lower HP & miles per gallon. Of course if you get it for free?

That is what I thought too but he got 16 years and 200,000 plus trouble free miles out of his Honda sedan. He and my sis in law called me for my birthday and I asked about it again. He still does it but not to the Honda mentioned as it was replaced some years ago. (Maybe the acetone finally ate something?? ) I guess he uses a small enough percentage of acetone that it is not immediately harmful to at least some cars (his, apparently.) I still think it is likely "snake oil" but I can't convince him of that when I have no actual results showing to the contrary, just vague suppositions about maybe it will swell up some seal or O ring or dissolve something or... I'm sure he doesn't add enough acetone to be an issue about the energy content of the acetone vs gasoline.

As far as the Marvel Mystery oil goes... Surely it isn't needed but I have no evidence that when used in moderation that it causes harm except maybe more air pollution. If I were to use MM oil I'd be interested in the inverse vacuum control that puts more oil directly into the intake manifold when the engine is working harder and little or none when it is at idle or coasting.

By the way, his 200,000 plus (and current car) was/is a mix of stop and go and freeway commute at varying speeds from stop and go to 85MPH cruise. He doesn't pamper his cars as regards acceleration and such. With automatics he often shifts to lower gears to take "S" curves well above the speed recommended by the yellow diamond shaped signs.

Pat

 

[jsborn]

Pat
You made reference to a DIY waste oil heater do you have the plans or could you send some info on this unit? I would be interested in making one for my shop. PM me if you don't want to send it in this thread.

Thanks

 

[patrick_g]

Pat
You made reference to a DIY waste oil heater do you have the plans or could you send some info on this unit? I would be interested in making one for my shop. PM me if you don't want to send it in this thread.

Thanks

Please see the new thread I put my response into. It is in PROJECTS. This will give anyone with input or additional questions a better place to cuss and discuss the issues.

Pat

 

[Red55]

Guys- just read a lubricity study on the "Diesel Place" where several popular additives were tested. . . check it out Two cycle oil tested pretty well but NOT recommended because 2007 emissions. Me, I'm changing from power service to stanadyne (availablity) IMO ED

 

[tomd999]

Hiya,

To the original topic of the post, I have one of those 2 stroke oil cups, never really use it anymore, numbers have been shrinking for years now they are too small to read. I buy the one shot Amsoil 100-1 2 stroke and dump it in with the gas.

As far as trying to measure ratios, keep in mind that the larger the quantities mixed, the less error you will introduce when measuring. (unless of course you use the gulg glug method)

I would never put any used oil products into the fuel of a Diesel I wanted to keep. No matter how fine you filter it or how clean it looks, it contains metals and other particles that will wear the pump and injectors. If it's used engine oil, it also contains acids and fuel residues. The cost to replace an injector pump will set you back at least 2K (Cummins Bosch rotary last time I looked), you will not save that amount by running used oil in the fuel.

I tried a little 2 stroke for a while, didn't notice a difference.

I do however wonder if adding a little EP90 gear oil to the fuel would do anything... It's main anti wear additive is sulfur, exactly what they took out of the fuel.... Hmmmmmm, now where did I put that left over bottle....... Don't add too much, sulfur is corrosive to yellow metals. (fuel gauge senders)

Tom

 

[Skyco]

From what I've read sulfur is not a lubricant.
It is the process of removing the sulfur that also removes whatever the good lubrication properties are in the base oil.
So don't anyone get any ideas about adding sulfur to their fuel
As for adding gear oil....hmmm not so sure about how wise that is either.
I think I'll stick to certified diesel fuel additives or in the case of 2-stroke oil at least it is meant to be burned- 2k for an injection pump is bad enough- try buying a set of Powerstroke electronic injectors

 

[patrick_g]

Skyco, For the most part you are wasting your finger's effort posting advice against adding various snake oil faith healing potions to fuel. It just seems there are people who accept on faith for whatever reason that their particular acumen in selecting and adding various substances (aka adulterants) to their fuel will transcend reality and give them some special edge.

Logic can't combat the illogical. Facts are useless when confronting faith based beliefs.

It is amusing sometimes to consider the additives must be working as the user thinks it is so.

I sprinkle 1/37 of a teaspoon of kosher salt on the front porch steps during the full moon and it keeps away elephants. Since I started doing it there has been no elephants on our front porch or even in the yard.

Pat

 

[Skyco]

Sometimes I can't help myself...

 

[cp1969]

I sprinkle 1/37 of a teaspoon of kosher salt on the front porch steps during the full moon and it keeps away elephants. Since I started doing it there has been no elephants on our front porch or even in the yard.

Pat

Pat, I use a rock to keep the Cape Buffaloes away:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...do-i-dare-put-slick-2.html?highlight=elephant
Post 16.
It must work; I've never have seen one on the place.

 

[tomd999]

Hiya,

I see my attempt at some sarcastic humor flopped....

I wish to state that I do not recommend that unapproved additives be added to fuels.

To the point of sulfurized compounds being used as extreme pressure anti wear additives in gear (GL series) lubricants. GL5 lubricant has an extreme pressure (EP) performance rating intended for Hypoid gear sets. This type differential design features sliding component contact areas that operate under high point loadings as part of normal operation. In applications such as these, lubricants must have the ability to maintain film coverage and prevent direct contact of components. This is achieved by incorporating high concentrations of sulfurized additives. Some of these sulfurized additives are very aggressive, designed react to the alloys in the components and tightly bond to them, providing the protection needed. The downside of such bonding in highly sulfurized lubricants is that it tends to corrode yellow metals. Most differentials do not utilize components that will be adversely affected however most end users use GL5 and GL4 lubricants interchangeably. In doing so they can seriously damage components such as brass synchronizer blocker rings and bronze bushings. (or fuel gauge senders)

Perhaps the most recent vehicle to be affected by this interchanged usage is the '03 and later "tank frame" Buell lightning and firebolt series motorcycles. The manufacturer uses an oil cooled, permanent magnet, exposed winding type alternator attached to the inside of the primary drive case cover. This housing contains the primary drive chain and wet clutch assembly. End users looking for a "better" lubricant frequently substituted a popular synthetic GL5 rated gear lube for the recommended "sporttrans" or "Synth3" lubes. Most owners that used GL5 series lubes found after several hundred miles, the aggressive sulfurized additives in the GL5 lube had attacked the copper windings of the alternator and rendered it non working.

I'll refrain form the lame attempts at sarcastic humor for now,

OK, that's long enough.... Something must be wrong with your formula for pachyderm protection, whenever I do that I find the salt gone and a bunch of happy deer in the front yard....

Tom

 

[patrick_g]

Hiya,



Something must be wrong with your formula for pachyderm protection, whenever I do that I find the salt gone and a bunch of happy deer in the front yard....

Tom

1. I saw no failure of humor, lighten up on yourself.
2. I didn't give away ALL the magic ingredients/processes

There is still the part about a dead cat and spunkwater which is not common knowledge.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

Coarse or fine grain? I need to know... our neighbor lady is large!

(wink)

Soundguy

I sprinkle 1/37 of a teaspoon of kosher salt on the front porch steps during the full moon and it keeps away elephants. Since I started doing it there has been no elephants on our front porch or even in the yard.

Pat

 

[joerocker]

So what do you think? ARE we wasting our time/money adding ANYTHING to the fuel? Is stanadyne or power service a waste?

 

[Skyco]

I know my Powerstroke runs smoother/quieter with Powerservice DieselKleen in it..now as far as greater mileage I haven't seen that....

 

[patrick_g]

So what do you think? ARE we wasting our time/money adding ANYTHING to the fuel? Is stanadyne or power service a waste?

Ask a single questiion like yours and you will get several different opinions.

Most additive use is faith based with little or no good engineering data. Ahh, to have a corner on the market on petroleum distillate the chief ingredient of most of the snake oil.

Anti-gel additives for winter driving are a good thing. Cetane improvers, in moderation, can be a good thing, especially when actually needed. After that you are getting into a gray area which is most often faith based. Most additive sellers can give you a jillion personal testimonials from a collection of folks who are true believers. Few can offer hard science, irrefutable data from repeatable experiments performed by third party labs with no monetary interest in the product.

One of the chief errors in logic relating to the use of snake oil (fuel additives or diet pills or *** drive enhancers) is known as "post hoc propter ergo hoc" which translates as, after this therefore because of this. You use an additive for 200, 000 miles and get good results so you think it was because of the additive. You do x and later y happens and jump to the conclusion that x caused y. Maybe and maybe not. I peed off the back porch and the next day it rained. Do you think I caused the rain? Wanna hire me?

There may be good additives available and there may be good results obtained in some situations using them but there is a shortage of scientific evidence. Why? If a producer of additives could prove a benefit don't you think they would and then sell the **** out of the product due to the demand the proof produced?

UNSUBSTANTIATED claims and various good old boy testimonials abound but where are the repeatable scientifically significant results? IF you had a product that an independent lab could verify as beneficial you couldn't make the sutuff fast enough to keep pace with the demand.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

I'd also like to add 'biocides' to the list of addatives that do have benefitial properties, other than profit for the sellers..

and for the record.. I use PS...

Soundguy

 

[Egon]

We cant forget salt can we???