Might buy shared property, any wisdom?

MarkV · May 10, 2006

Richard,
Just a point of clarification? This started with the idea of buying the AIL’s 1/9 ownership of the 250 acres. Is this something that has been brought up and her and her 4 heirs are interested in and agree to do? I ask because our experience with assisted living has been that you generally want to bankrupt someone in that situation so that Medicare will kick in and take care of the expenses. A large influx of new cash can be a problem if the land hasn’t already been deeded to the heirs.

As a “yankee” that married into an old southern family I have made several observations. First, though loved, respected and welcomed, twenty years later I’m still a “yankee” and never will be blood. Second, family land is an issue for blood and no one else. Third, old southern gentlemen do not make fast decisions and do not feel their finances are anyone else’s business.

As much as you are only trying to protect his interests is there a chance he perceives your efforts as ‘none of your business’? Sounds like you have taken him to an attorney at your expense, offered to pay legal fees for a trust, encouraged real-estate marketing inquires and are trying to buy out one of the family members. I think my mid 80’s FIL could have perceived that as pushing a little too hard. I don’t think he ever got over living through the depression where land was the only thing of value after the banks went bust. Maybe you need to back off and let the chips fall where they may even if it isn’t the way you would have handled it personally.

Of course every situation is different and I can only base on what I believe my FIL would have felt.

MarkV

Richard · May 10, 2006

Hi Mark,

( Just a point of clarification? This started with the idea of buying the AIL’s 1/9 ownership of the 250 acres. Is this something that has been brought up and her and her 4 heirs are interested in and agree to do? I ask because our experience with assisted living has been that you generally want to bankrupt someone in that situation so that Medicare will kick in and take care of the expenses. A large influx of new cash can be a problem if the land hasn’t already been deeded to the heirs. )

This did start with my wifes idea of buying AIL's 1/9th of 250 acres. My FIL has tried to "buy" her out in years past by offering her DOUBLE acres so they could deed her out and seperate her. Her second (and now deceased) husband didn't want to do that for reasons unknown to me...and time has simply passed since his passing. Buying her out, dividing her out, HAS been discussed in the past and I think the main reason it's never been done was to keep the entire 250 acres together to sell it ALL (yet he keeps waffling about selling it).

As far as Medicare, I'm semi-aware of that reality and frankly, I don't know what's going on here. As far as influx of cash, I have an estate attorney/CPA guy that I was going to run an idea about that past to see if it would be legal (buy her an immediate annuity with 20 years guaranteed, she probably wont last 3 years and nursing home can take 3 years and beneficiaries get balance of time)

I'm with you about "still a yankee". Furthermore, you are right on about family land. What amazes me is that is precisely what I'm trying to save them and by their collective inactions, they are setting up to give a lot away to inheritance taxes or possibly undersell it.

I'm sure he has taken a narrow eye to my interest in his finances, I could be wrong. Being an investment advisor, it is something that I'm more aware of than perhaps his kids are. Given my experience with dealing with folks who's loved ones have passed and seeing the train wrecks that people create with their finances, I can see this Cannonball express SCREAMING towards us and am trying to do what I can to avert disaster. Once I've made my effort and have a clear conscience that "I tried", the wreck can happen.

As it is, my larger concern is doing nothing, having a huge wreck hit the family and then they say "Wait a minute... you SAW this coming, yet you said NOTHING and let it happen??????"

For my conscience, that is a more evil choice, so I risk that I'll be deft enough with my words and actions to avoid ticking them off (thus far so good I think). If wreck happens, then they all know I was acting because I cared and it was THEIR inaction caused it, not their ignorance because I'm trying to take THAT excuse away (not to mention that their inactions DO directly affect me since I live there and the other siblings/cousins do not).

One reason we are talking about buying AIL out is simply to try to consolidate ownership. Yes, I'd love for my wife and I to be able to buy 100% but... reality sets in.

If on the other hand, we can help out AIL, AND (and this part is kind of rude sounding) but... and if we can take the expansion of HER beneficiaries out of the picture, we'll have 4 less decision makers (one whom is addicted to substances) to deal with. I might add as a side note, my FIL has always sort of "resented" (my word) the fact that his sister owns 1/9th of the place, yet for 30 years has never paid a penny towards upkeep, penny towards taxes, penny towards anything...

So, I'm sure if I know THAT much, there are probably other issues that I'm NOT aware of that are a bit deeper & personal inside the family, if even only at my FIL's level and not my wifes (ie, she may not be aware of them either).

FIL is very stubborn and I've learned that if you can make it look as though it's HIS idea, then all is great... if however, it's YOUR idea, then he is harder to deal with (wife told me this, she's one of the few that can 'finesse' him and is working on him on this very issue since she's executrix and it will be saving HER a lot of future heartache)

I am about 90% through with trying to help, once I have tried all avenues that I am aware of to do what I belive is the "right" thing to do, I will then sit back and let the wreck happen and fight the urge to be smug, lest wife smack me /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I really dont get how people can look at the same crystal clear piece of glass and not see the same image on the other side. He can easily calculate his approximate net worth, he can see his deduction & inheritance tax situation. He HATES the IRS, yet is doing nothing to manage that reality. He has even said to bury him in a pine box if possible because it's stupid to pay a funeral home for a fancier box that is just going to rot away.

Yeesh... I'd better stop before I get to the 19th chapter.

/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Sigarms · May 10, 2006

Well, you don't want to "run", but the more you metion about the family...

Type a letter, list all of your concerns, the reasoning behind your concerns, and what you think the best action should be and why.

Send this letter certified mail to all of the relatives in question.

Let them KNOW the reason behind this letter is not to be a "pest", but that you care for the family and think this is the best course of "action".

5 million dollars says they will not listen to a word of your "wisdom" (no sarcasim sp? intended)

Back FAR away from the situation and watch.

This really is a no win situation for you.

If you don't want to send a letter, do nothing. Seriously, cause no "waves" and just go with the flow.

The more you try, the more your going to tick people off in this type of situation.

Although I'm young at 40, going through this with my Aunts estate has taught me many things.

You have to learn from experience, and sometimes thats not easy. This will not be easy for you.

5 million dollars also says you also won't heed any "don't intervene (sp?) advice becuase you really do care and love your family and want what you think is the best course of "action" to take (sorry, I really don't have 5 million, so thats off the table) for the family.

I sincerely mean "good luck".

dooleysm · May 10, 2006

"Although I'm young at 40"

I used to think 40 was older than dirt. Now I'm coming up fast on 30 and 40 doesn't seem that old anymore.

For some reason I find this situation fascinating. It blows my mind how some families work. Some good, some bad. It takes all kinds. Not saying anything bad about anyone in this situation because I have no idea how my family or I would react under similar circumstances. I guess I've been blessed to never be in this type of situation.

I anxiously await updates on this thread.

ScottAR · May 11, 2006

I echo Sigarms post... Your off to the firing squad... Hold your head up high, make sure your blindfold is on straight and have a puff on a cigar. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'm somewhat of a cynic when it comes to human nature.

I've never seen 12 people that could agree on a pizza order much less a money decision.

I'm currently distrubting a small inheiritence and very near the knashing of teeth stage... I don't want to hijack your thread so I'll leave it at that...

CurlyDave · May 11, 2006

Richard:

I have thought about this some more.

There is a lot of money an the table and from the way you describe it, your FIL is the kingpin, has no clue as to the value of the land, and neither do the rest of the relatives.

Since you are not "blood" you need to stay out of it or you will be forever hated by someone, no matter how good your intentions.

I think the best route is to get a licensed appraiser to appraise the land. Sure, he will charge a fee, but it is peanuts compared to what is on the table.

Have your wife contract with him to do this. Since you are only talking about the land, he does not have to go into any buildings, and may even be able to inspect the land by driving by rather than by walking it.

Once you have an appraisal, contact all of the relatives and send them a copy of the document. Your wife should mail it to everyone on the same day.

Once everyone knows how much money is at stake, there will be a lot of pressure on FIL not to sell cheaply to a developer.

The sit back and watch things develop. If you & your wife have the money to buy out AIL, you can do it for a fair price with fewer hard feelings, but let your wife be the lead purchaser. You will both be equally on the deed.

If it doesn't work out that way, when your wife inherits her portion, sell it, either to the remaining family or an outsider, take the money, add it to whatever else you have and find another property. That way you are out of the family feud which may well develop.

California · May 11, 2006

( The basic question is, do I want to try to buy into the farm? current ownership is:

FIL 4/9 th’s (has 5 adult kids)
UIL 4/9 th’s (uncle in law, has 3 adult kids)
AIL 1/9 th (aunt in law has 4 adult kids)

AIL is in final stages emphysema. Only the three houses (FIL, UIL and mine) are deeded separate from the farm, the rest of the land is common ownership.

Farm is 250 acres

If I can buy AIL out, we’d own about 25 acres and later in life, if we can get past estate taxes, wife will inherit another 22. Perhaps we can buy more later… -Richard )

Richard, how can I say this? You are dreaming.

If you buy AIL's share you won't own 25 acres, you the Yankee will own a 1/9 interest in 250 acres that local developers are drooling over.

AIL's 4 kids will be be shut out of the tremendous land appreciation that they have waited forever to make them rich. Don't kid yourself, each of them has some idea what their share is worth and will forever feel cheated by the clever Yankee if you buy 'their rightful share of the family farm' at today's appraised price.

That is only one of the many scenarios that will split the family into irreconcilable factions.

Most other courses of action also end up badly.

There must be someone else along with AIL who needs a cash inheritance due to being unexpectedly disabled, divorced, or something.

But any action that concentrates ownership in fewer than 12 parties will result in two classes: losers, and the powerful people who cheated them, in at least a few people's eyes.

You think you can come up with a way to resolve this mess by decisive action now, but it won't help. Any action, especially by a non-blood Yankee, will be forever described in this family's oral history as your agressive self-interest. Don't stick your neck in the noose.

Maybe there is someone among the twelve blood heirs who has the respect to lead the way. Find him (her), coach him, hope for the best.

EddieWalker · May 11, 2006

Richard,

I'm in agreement that it's going to be a nightmare no matter what you do. Sitting back and dealing with the fallout is going to be painful to watch. With your wife involved in it, it's something that there's no avoiding.

What I'm wondering is how much money would it take to buy out the AIL? Is it something that you can afford and consider an investment over the long term?

No matter what happens, your screwed. They wont' like you when it happens if your involved or not. Why apease them if you're going to have to deal with the fallout either way?

I wold consider how bad it could with a piece of the pie versus how bad it will be if you sit back and deal with the colatoral damage. My thinking is it's going to be a nightmare either way. Might as well be a part of it.

Eddie

riptides · May 11, 2006

Whoa!

I am reading some of the replies in here and sorry..... don't agree with them. It may indeed be a train wreck a comin'. It MAY not. Give it a shot. Give it your BEST shot. GO FOR IT. And if it falls apart, so be it. YOU will have a clear mind, YOU took action. YOU tried.

I am sitting across from a family estate now. Time has muddied the title and the ownership is generations removed from it. Bottom line, it is NOT in the family anymore. HELLO?
No one benefited from that. They talked all the way to their graves. No one hears them now. The paper trail at the courthouse? Right..... deeds never filed, deals never made.

Sorry, GO for it.

-Mike Z.

Sigarms · May 11, 2006

Problem is as I see it is that everyone that has a "stake" in this property is still alive and not burried (sp?).

EVERYONE has thier own ideas as to "whats coming to them" and they will still be alive when the FIL dies (you would be surprised what people say compare to what they do after the "fact").

Nightmare anyway you look at it.

But, if you love the family and try to do whats best, you will be crucified no matter what your involvement (sp?).