min-till I think...

   / min-till I think... #11  
Last spring, we did our first attempt of what is called "min-till" in your continent: I think it is better described as ploughless tillage, because it consisted of 5 passes:

solving compaction problems on hard packed horse soil begins with something like this:
http://www.eversagro.nl/img/fotogalerijen/woelers/Java/images/MKet St tand en beitel 20cm.jpg

I can bury it to the frame in dry conditons with the 5245, which is 4 ton, 50 hp FWD. frame is about 80 cm or 32 inch. Tractor will dig in if going deeper than 25 inch.
Burying it will just leave a mess because clumps of sod will begin to plug up.
I mostly run the chisels just under the black topsoil layer (through the yellow subsoil) because the chisels wont create hard pan in the beach sand at 40 cm depth, and neither do horses, so as long as i'm under the topsoil layer, its deep enough.

Then a following pass with a 9 tine heavy cultivator, 2 meter wide, so tine spacing is 10 inch, working depth usually 15 inch.

Last year it was all mud, so we carefully broke it into big clumps with the subsoiler. This way the soil could dry, without making the wet soil too fine so it wont be like a sponge. Normally, working in wet soil is out of the question, but sometimes it just needs a helping hand to get dry enough to carry tractor wheels without rutting.

After the soil was dry enough to carry a tractor and give traction, i ran it at normal depth, and a week later with the 9 tine chisel, comparable to this:
http://www.hekamp.nl/files/Image/site/items/138/foto2.jpg

Then i spread a whole lot of manure, then chiseled again to loosen the manure spreader tracks.
Then i created a seedbed with our triple K cultivator with crumble roller.

The grass is doing fine, and there is no pooling anymore. The muck held moisture to get the young shallow grass roots going.

Just dont make the soil too loose when wet. Using a fine spaced cultivator on wet soil, is like stirring cement. When stirred wet soil cures, it gets even denser.
 
   / min-till I think...
  • Thread Starter
#12  
BTW I contacted the soil/water conservation office in my area and they were no help. Only thing they could offer was a soils map for the area which I already have. Their advice was to hire a soil scientist. I suspect I can glean enough from the soils survey + asking specific questions of the Nrcs staff. At least I hope I can. Then again I might just save the time and bury the shanks as far as possible assuming the worst.
 
   / min-till I think...
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Renze
What did you use to seed w/...drill, broadcast ??

There are places in my field that pool. After looking online at soil maps some of the cause is soil type but most I bet are compaction issues. Was incorrect about the soil type I mentioned previously. Almost all of what I have are silt/loams of various types. Im told theyre pretty good at holding water! Anyway, Ill be very happy to remedy the situation and get the water into the soil + itll be much better for the grass.

Also learned today that Tarver Sales (the Hay King distributor for my area) has designed a dry fertilizer shank for the Hay King. However, they just havent put it into production. Theyve gotten many calls about it and perhaps thatll soon get production started. My coop can supply liquid fertilizer which I dont think is appropriate for subsurface application. Its the 32-0-0 stuff dumped between rows for corn. If it burns foliage Im sure its going to be hard on the roots. Then again I know nothing about it and neither did the coop or county agent. So, for now I might have to be satisfied to apply fertilizer on the ground and use whatever I get to rip and aerate.

Was looking at subsoilers and see there are a couple types...rippers inline across the frame and those which form a V. Not sure why one would be preferred above the other. Ideas? :) Also saw V types fitted w/ coulters which I suppose minimizes surface disruption. Then there are the fancy (read expensive) types w/ winged teeth. Guess that keeps them at a more even draft?
 
   / min-till I think... #14  
jimg said:
Im planning to replant my hay ground this fall and was going to go no-till for that. However, I believe its been 20+yrs since anything has been done to either piece of ground. Since Im starting from ground zero Id like to address compaction now but w/o conventional tillage. I think this is called min-till, right? I want to benefit from the ideas of no-till (dead cover as mulch + not have to deal w/ the possibility of erosion + not have the expense of multiple tillage tools) but still correct a possible compaction problem. As I see it my options are to run a ripper or chisel plow. Do I have that correct? If so I think my options are a ripper(s), chisel plow or pasture renovator.

Just to be clear my goals for tilling are to allow moisture and fertilizer to migrate more easily into the soil, aerate and enlarge the root zone for better stand longevity.

From what little I know about rippers theyre very high hp so I think my 'little' 75hp tractor isnt going to be able to handle more than a couple. Ive not seen many that small. Going this route. I believe, would consume a large amt of fuel and time.

I know nothing about chisel plows or how deep they might till but my feeling is that I could accommodate a larger plow (vs a ripper) and it would satisfy my goals. Im unsure how theyd do on ground that hasnt been tilled in some time. From pics Ive seen they look light.

I read most of the posts here about pasture renovators and understand theyre a compromise. I dont get the very deep ripping but surface disruption is minimal. Im not sure though if this implement would eventually cause a pan to develop at its max till depth and is that depth less than the root zone? I really want to deep root zone b/c it can get pretty dry here in the summer. How does the till depth on the renovator compare to a chisel plow?

How much in advance of planting would I need to rip/chisel plow? How much surface disruption would occur?

My neighbor used a big single shank ripper (subsoiler) and his MF-294 diesel (75 hp engine, 56 hp drawbar) to break up the hardpan on 30 acres of alfalfa field last Sept. He had that ripper buried at least 18 inches, probably more like 2 ft. He ripped on diagonals to the fence lines on about 30 inch centers. Took him a while with only a single shank, but he got the job done. He finished the tillage with a few criss-cross passes from his 10-ft tandem disc parallel to the fence lines.
 
   / min-till I think...
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Hi Flusher
Was hoping that I could do better than a single ripper. Im sure it took a fair amt of time going that way. From my searching so far it looks like 3 is my upper limit. Im also not planning to go that deep as I think grass doesnt put down roots like alfalfa. I think perhaps the Hay King is really all I need. Im still working on it though.
 
   / min-till I think... #16  
jimg said:
Im also not planning to go that deep as I think grass doesnt put down roots like alfalfa.

How deep you need to go, depends on where the compaction is, not how deep the crop roots.

When there is hard pan, the subsoil will not deliver moisture to the topsoil via the capillary system.
When wet, the water has to drain off the surface instead of sink into the subsoil and follow deeper paths to the creek, river, sea.
 
   / min-till I think...
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Renze, thanx, I didt know that! I poked around some and found a number of articles on the subject. Some of them indicated that soil type plays a part in how much capillary action to count on. Do you know anything about that part of it?

One more question...subsoilers, that my tarctor can handle, dont seem to be that heavy. Is it sheer weight that causes them to penetrate to depth or does the ripper shape pull it under?
 
   / min-till I think... #18  
jimg said:
Renze, thanx, I didt know that! I poked around some and found a number of articles on the subject. Some of them indicated that soil type plays a part in how much capillary action to count on. Do you know anything about that part of it?

One more question...subsoilers, that my tarctor can handle, dont seem to be that heavy. Is it sheer weight that causes them to penetrate to depth or does the ripper shape pull it under?

Angle of the point. My single shank "Fred Cain" subsoiler is about 125 lbs. While that's an armfull, I doubt it would be enough weight to make it dig in to our clay here. But that baby'll go to China once you get the point into the ground. By lengthening pr shortening the top link, I can control just how fast it tries to head to Bejing.
 

Attachments

  • Jan1dogs 009.jpg
    Jan1dogs 009.jpg
    142.6 KB · Views: 150
   / min-till I think... #19  
jimg said:
Renze, thanx, I didt know that! I poked around some and found a number of articles on the subject. Some of them indicated that soil type plays a part in how much capillary action to count on. Do you know anything about that part of it?

Dunno about that.... just know our local sand soils on the farm, and the heavier loam (with ore hardpan) soil further away in the field we rent...
Your North American soil, would probably be totally different to ours, so you better ask local sources ;)

Just one adivice in general: Dig some holes, to get a look on how your soil is built up in layers... it gives information on where hardpan may have formed, and ripping through a clean, beach sand subsoil doesnt have effect anyways.

jimg said:
One more question...subsoilers, that my tarctor can handle, dont seem to be that heavy. Is it sheer weight that causes them to penetrate to depth or does the ripper shape pull it under?

the leg is just holding the blade... the blade is lifting the soil to break it up, whilst pulling itself in. to give an idea of the soil lift with 1 foot wide wings, look at this pic: http://www.eversagro.nl/img/fotogalerijen/woelers/Trakehner/pages/Werkdiepte maximaal 70cm.htm

When i have enough hardpan above the blades of our neighbours 3 leg Evers heavy duty ripper, i can pull large wheelies when i lift the thing during driving. ;)
 
   / min-till I think... #20  
jimg said:
Renze
What did you use to seed w/...drill, broadcast ??


We had a contractor do that, with a power harrow/air seeder/packer combination. It gives a firm, even seedbed, and the power harrow spreads and smooths out the manure clods better than a cultivator can.
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

More info coming soon! (A44571)
More info coming...
John Deere 325G 75 HP John Deere Cab Track loader (A44789)
John Deere 325G 75...
CAT 416F Backhoe (A43476)
CAT 416F Backhoe...
2017 VOLVO VNL TANDEM AXLE SLEEPER (A45677)
2017 VOLVO VNL...
New Wolverine Skid Steer Pallet Forks Hydraulic Adjustable (A48289)
New Wolverine Skid...
2013 HINO CONVENTIONAL TYPE TRUCK (A47001)
2013 HINO...
 
Top