min-till I think...

[jimg]

Im planning to replant my hay ground this fall and was going to go no-till for that. However, I believe its been 20+yrs since anything has been done to either piece of ground. Since Im starting from ground zero Id like to address compaction now but w/o conventional tillage. I think this is called min-till, right? I want to benefit from the ideas of no-till (dead cover as mulch + not have to deal w/ the possibility of erosion + not have the expense of multiple tillage tools) but still correct a possible compaction problem. As I see it my options are to run a ripper or chisel plow. Do I have that correct? If so I think my options are a ripper(s), chisel plow or pasture renovator.

Just to be clear my goals for tilling are to allow moisture and fertilizer to migrate more easily into the soil, aerate and enlarge the root zone for better stand longevity.

From what little I know about rippers theyre very high hp so I think my 'little' 75hp tractor isnt going to be able to handle more than a couple. Ive not seen many that small. Going this route. I believe, would consume a large amt of fuel and time.

I know nothing about chisel plows or how deep they might till but my feeling is that I could accommodate a larger plow (vs a ripper) and it would satisfy my goals. Im unsure how theyd do on ground that hasnt been tilled in some time. From pics Ive seen they look light.

I read most of the posts here about pasture renovators and understand theyre a compromise. I dont get the very deep ripping but surface disruption is minimal. Im not sure though if this implement would eventually cause a pan to develop at its max till depth and is that depth less than the root zone? I really want to deep root zone b/c it can get pretty dry here in the summer. How does the till depth on the renovator compare to a chisel plow?

How much in advance of planting would I need to rip/chisel plow? How much surface disruption would occur?

 

[WTA]

You could pull the old 12 foot wide chisel I have fairly easy. My last two tractors did and they were just 30 and 45 HP machines. I have 95 now and it does it real good plus I can lift the tires on the chisel clean off the ground and really bury the points.
They do not leave a smooth enough surface for haying though. That's the only problem. I wouldn't take my haybine out there. You can either disc it or rig up a homemade drag of some sort to clean up the furrows it leaves.

Personally, I'd go for a pasture renovator. I was told I can only pull two bottoms too but I'm doing 4 with no problem if there is even the least little bit of moisture in the dirt. If it's hardpan then it's not going to pull anything without breaking something. I have a 4 bottom plow that is now a one bottom thanks to this dirt.

 

[jimg]

One more possible advantage of using a chisel plow and perhaps the pasture renovator is that I could put fertilizer below the surface.

 

[chh]

If you are worried about the compaction being deep, I would say the rippers would be a better choice even if you had to hire it out. If you don't think it is all that deep you could probably pick up a 8' to 12' chisel plow at an auction fairly easily and be able to pull it with your tractor. A pass(or a few passes) would help smooth everything up.
As far the benefits of min-till though I don't know if it would make that much difference on a one time project like a pasture/meadow renovation. I used a heavy 10' disc and then a lighter 8' disc pulling a drag harrow this spring on and old meadow before having is sprigged. I turned all the standing grass into the soil hoping to ad some humus matter to it. It sure has come back out nice since the sprigging and hopefully will be much smoother next year when we start mowing it for hay again.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Thinking out loud here.....

Around these parts, 75 hp would move a 12' chisel plow down a paved road OK, but drop it in the ground and it would stop the tractor on a dime. 12' takes 125+ HP in this soil. Different people have different ideas what a chisel plow is and how to go about using it. A true chisel plow is meant to operate deep. 10" to 12" AT LEAST.

OK... Different school of thought. No-till farming depends on freeze/thaw cycles to "heave" soils to eliminate compaction "natures way". It works if (a) you have enough freezing temps and (b) given enough time. (NO till as opposed to minimum till)

Most grass crops DO NOT like to be seeded into a deep, loose seedbed. They like firm (but NOT compacted) soils.

I've had my best luck incorporating fertilizer at depths just below the surface to a max of 3". Any deeper and it doesn't have as much effect on a new crop. With fertilizer cost today, I want EVERY speck of it to go to use. A good disc will work to that depth. But... a disc will further complicate the compaction issues.

Deep rippers and/or subsoilers do the absolute best job of fracturing hardpan without full scale disruption of the surface. They take a lot of power per shank, but you don't need to run them but every 24" to 36" to get a good job. (When I subsoil, I generally run the cuts about 30" to 32" apart)

There's a number of specialized "pasture renovators" on the market nowdays. I've used a HAY KING brand. 75 hp should pull a 6' to 7' at a good ground speed.

My advice? Get the soil and water conservation district/county extension agent involved. Let them estimate the degree of compaction you're dealing with, the depth where the compaction layer is at, and offer their LOCALIZED opinion on what might work best. Not saying you HAVE to do what they say, just get another good opinion based on local conditions.

 

[jimg]

Thanx Chuck
Honestly Ive no idea how far down or at what level(s) it is or even if it is. (Im assuming that since its not been tilled in such a long time there is compaction.) Both fields have only been hay ground and sometimes pasture but mostly the former. I know its been traveled on wet b/c there are ruts in certain places + I have one or 2 spots which pool. I think I really only need to go as deep as the roots will go and Im not entirely sure how deep that would be. Im planting grass (OG & timothy).

Im not certain I could hire out the ripping b/c very very few do anything other than conventional till.

I REALLY dont want to turn whats on top as Id like that to mulch and control erosion. Whatever I wind up doing cant disturb the surface much. However, I would like to 'renovate' every fall + perhaps use it as a means of injecting fertilizer below the surface. Maybe I have incorrect expectations on that acct. but I might be able to do so in the spring & fall.

Sorry Im all over the map w/ this but Im trying to formulate a plan and omit those ideas which wont work.

 

[jimg]

farmw/junk: Thanx for chiming in, was hoping youd add to this discussion.

Im S of you in the E TN Valley and I think our soils are pretty similar. The freeze/thaw cycle is minimal at best. It does get chilly but not to a great extent. That said Im not really NT farming. I just want to est my stand NT so I can reap some of its benefits + save fuel and time. I had considered conventional till followed by a packer...seemed terribly expensive in equipment, fuel and time. I *think* I can get the same effect w/ less input and thats what Im casting around for. At the moment Im tending toward a pasture renovator b/c I think its gives best results and I might be able to rig up some sort of fertilizer attachment for it too. I would like to rip though to a depth that would allow my grass to tap into deeper moisture. That said I dont want to complete give up on the idea of a chisel plow just yet. I would have more latitude on depth and it could be fitted w/ coulters so the surface would get so ripped up.

 

[chh]

Reading my post I messed that up. A pass or a few passes with a drag or drag harrow should help smooth it up. FMJ is probably more correct on the hp estimate for the chisel plow. 12' would probably really push a 75 hp if you really put it in. The pasture renovators I have seen seem to do a good job if you don't need to go too deep. I have seen some with seeder attachments rigged on them, but not with fertizer attachments. That doesn't mean its not done I just have not seen one locally and I don't know of any reason why you couldn't.
My 10' disc has 24" blades on 2 one way gangs. On the second pass with it I was getting in clear to the axles on the dics. It was really a load on the MF 596 with 99 hp and MFWD. It did a good job of turning everything over and chopping it in. Of course my goal was different than yours. The NRCS wanted everything worked so the new bermuda sprigs would have as little cometition as possible while it was trying to establish.

 

[slowzuki]

If you are gonna rip deeply, the rule of thumb for compacted soil is 20 hp per shank in the local soils. Generally a minimum of 5 shanks is used so your tracks are covered to prevent recompaction.

Even with this size of tractor, big rocks and old roots will stop the tractor dead quite violently.

 

[jimg]

I did a bit of investigation and the renovator (Hay King in particular) seems very close to what Id like. It can aerate, rip to a degree and fertilize all w/o tearing the field up. Fertilizing is particularly interesting as I think it could save $$$ by getting nutrients where theyre used rather than relying on migration (or lack of it) from surface to roots. Its unclear what types it would handle...dry and/or liquid. The mfg says liquid only but the distributor says both. That still needs to be worked out as I dont have the infrastructure here (I think) to handle liquid. Oh, it also handles anhydrous but I dont think I have access to that either. Another interesting aspect of using anhydrous is the frame is set up to use std anhydrous knives (according to the mfg). He said the bolt holes are such that anyones knives can be used. Does this make sense? I have no experience w/ this.

For my TN it looks like the C6 (6 shanks) is all it can handle which is fine as my tires get covered. Obviously the deeper the rippers are set the more power is required assuming soil of adequate moisture content. So, fertilizing would be w/i the capability of the tractor as the knives would be set to 3 or 4" along w/ need to drag a tank, buggy or something full of fertilizer.

 

[Renze]

Last spring, we did our first attempt of what is called "min-till" in your continent: I think it is better described as ploughless tillage, because it consisted of 5 passes:

solving compaction problems on hard packed horse soil begins with something like this:
http://www.eversagro.nl/img/fotogalerijen/woelers/Java/images/MKet St tand en beitel 20cm.jpg

I can bury it to the frame in dry conditons with the 5245, which is 4 ton, 50 hp FWD. frame is about 80 cm or 32 inch. Tractor will dig in if going deeper than 25 inch.
Burying it will just leave a mess because clumps of sod will begin to plug up.
I mostly run the chisels just under the black topsoil layer (through the yellow subsoil) because the chisels wont create hard pan in the beach sand at 40 cm depth, and neither do horses, so as long as i'm under the topsoil layer, its deep enough.

Then a following pass with a 9 tine heavy cultivator, 2 meter wide, so tine spacing is 10 inch, working depth usually 15 inch.

Last year it was all mud, so we carefully broke it into big clumps with the subsoiler. This way the soil could dry, without making the wet soil too fine so it wont be like a sponge. Normally, working in wet soil is out of the question, but sometimes it just needs a helping hand to get dry enough to carry tractor wheels without rutting.

After the soil was dry enough to carry a tractor and give traction, i ran it at normal depth, and a week later with the 9 tine chisel, comparable to this:
http://www.hekamp.nl/files/Image/site/items/138/foto2.jpg

Then i spread a whole lot of manure, then chiseled again to loosen the manure spreader tracks.
Then i created a seedbed with our triple K cultivator with crumble roller.

The grass is doing fine, and there is no pooling anymore. The muck held moisture to get the young shallow grass roots going.

Just dont make the soil too loose when wet. Using a fine spaced cultivator on wet soil, is like stirring cement. When stirred wet soil cures, it gets even denser.

 

[jimg]

BTW I contacted the soil/water conservation office in my area and they were no help. Only thing they could offer was a soils map for the area which I already have. Their advice was to hire a soil scientist. I suspect I can glean enough from the soils survey + asking specific questions of the Nrcs staff. At least I hope I can. Then again I might just save the time and bury the shanks as far as possible assuming the worst.

 

[jimg]

Renze
What did you use to seed w/...drill, broadcast ??

There are places in my field that pool. After looking online at soil maps some of the cause is soil type but most I bet are compaction issues. Was incorrect about the soil type I mentioned previously. Almost all of what I have are silt/loams of various types. Im told theyre pretty good at holding water! Anyway, Ill be very happy to remedy the situation and get the water into the soil + itll be much better for the grass.

Also learned today that Tarver Sales (the Hay King distributor for my area) has designed a dry fertilizer shank for the Hay King. However, they just havent put it into production. Theyve gotten many calls about it and perhaps thatll soon get production started. My coop can supply liquid fertilizer which I dont think is appropriate for subsurface application. Its the 32-0-0 stuff dumped between rows for corn. If it burns foliage Im sure its going to be hard on the roots. Then again I know nothing about it and neither did the coop or county agent. So, for now I might have to be satisfied to apply fertilizer on the ground and use whatever I get to rip and aerate.

Was looking at subsoilers and see there are a couple types...rippers inline across the frame and those which form a V. Not sure why one would be preferred above the other. Ideas? Also saw V types fitted w/ coulters which I suppose minimizes surface disruption. Then there are the fancy (read expensive) types w/ winged teeth. Guess that keeps them at a more even draft?

 

[flusher]

Im planning to replant my hay ground this fall and was going to go no-till for that. However, I believe its been 20+yrs since anything has been done to either piece of ground. Since Im starting from ground zero Id like to address compaction now but w/o conventional tillage. I think this is called min-till, right? I want to benefit from the ideas of no-till (dead cover as mulch + not have to deal w/ the possibility of erosion + not have the expense of multiple tillage tools) but still correct a possible compaction problem. As I see it my options are to run a ripper or chisel plow. Do I have that correct? If so I think my options are a ripper(s), chisel plow or pasture renovator.

Just to be clear my goals for tilling are to allow moisture and fertilizer to migrate more easily into the soil, aerate and enlarge the root zone for better stand longevity.

From what little I know about rippers theyre very high hp so I think my 'little' 75hp tractor isnt going to be able to handle more than a couple. Ive not seen many that small. Going this route. I believe, would consume a large amt of fuel and time.

I know nothing about chisel plows or how deep they might till but my feeling is that I could accommodate a larger plow (vs a ripper) and it would satisfy my goals. Im unsure how theyd do on ground that hasnt been tilled in some time. From pics Ive seen they look light.

I read most of the posts here about pasture renovators and understand theyre a compromise. I dont get the very deep ripping but surface disruption is minimal. Im not sure though if this implement would eventually cause a pan to develop at its max till depth and is that depth less than the root zone? I really want to deep root zone b/c it can get pretty dry here in the summer. How does the till depth on the renovator compare to a chisel plow?

How much in advance of planting would I need to rip/chisel plow? How much surface disruption would occur?

My neighbor used a big single shank ripper (subsoiler) and his MF-294 diesel (75 hp engine, 56 hp drawbar) to break up the hardpan on 30 acres of alfalfa field last Sept. He had that ripper buried at least 18 inches, probably more like 2 ft. He ripped on diagonals to the fence lines on about 30 inch centers. Took him a while with only a single shank, but he got the job done. He finished the tillage with a few criss-cross passes from his 10-ft tandem disc parallel to the fence lines.

 

[jimg]

Hi Flusher
Was hoping that I could do better than a single ripper. Im sure it took a fair amt of time going that way. From my searching so far it looks like 3 is my upper limit. Im also not planning to go that deep as I think grass doesnt put down roots like alfalfa. I think perhaps the Hay King is really all I need. Im still working on it though.

 

[Renze]

Im also not planning to go that deep as I think grass doesnt put down roots like alfalfa.

How deep you need to go, depends on where the compaction is, not how deep the crop roots.

When there is hard pan, the subsoil will not deliver moisture to the topsoil via the capillary system.
When wet, the water has to drain off the surface instead of sink into the subsoil and follow deeper paths to the creek, river, sea.

 

[jimg]

Renze, thanx, I didt know that! I poked around some and found a number of articles on the subject. Some of them indicated that soil type plays a part in how much capillary action to count on. Do you know anything about that part of it?

One more question...subsoilers, that my tarctor can handle, dont seem to be that heavy. Is it sheer weight that causes them to penetrate to depth or does the ripper shape pull it under?

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Renze, thanx, I didt know that! I poked around some and found a number of articles on the subject. Some of them indicated that soil type plays a part in how much capillary action to count on. Do you know anything about that part of it?

One more question...subsoilers, that my tarctor can handle, dont seem to be that heavy. Is it sheer weight that causes them to penetrate to depth or does the ripper shape pull it under?

Angle of the point. My single shank "Fred Cain" subsoiler is about 125 lbs. While that's an armfull, I doubt it would be enough weight to make it dig in to our clay here. But that baby'll go to China once you get the point into the ground. By lengthening pr shortening the top link, I can control just how fast it tries to head to Bejing.

 

[Renze]

Renze, thanx, I didt know that! I poked around some and found a number of articles on the subject. Some of them indicated that soil type plays a part in how much capillary action to count on. Do you know anything about that part of it?

Dunno about that.... just know our local sand soils on the farm, and the heavier loam (with ore hardpan) soil further away in the field we rent...
Your North American soil, would probably be totally different to ours, so you better ask local sources

Just one adivice in general: Dig some holes, to get a look on how your soil is built up in layers... it gives information on where hardpan may have formed, and ripping through a clean, beach sand subsoil doesnt have effect anyways.

One more question...subsoilers, that my tarctor can handle, dont seem to be that heavy. Is it sheer weight that causes them to penetrate to depth or does the ripper shape pull it under?

the leg is just holding the blade... the blade is lifting the soil to break it up, whilst pulling itself in. to give an idea of the soil lift with 1 foot wide wings, look at this pic: http://www.eversagro.nl/img/fotogalerijen/woelers/Trakehner/pages/Werkdiepte maximaal 70cm.htm

When i have enough hardpan above the blades of our neighbours 3 leg Evers heavy duty ripper, i can pull large wheelies when i lift the thing during driving.

 

[Renze]

Renze
What did you use to seed w/...drill, broadcast ??

We had a contractor do that, with a power harrow/air seeder/packer combination. It gives a firm, even seedbed, and the power harrow spreads and smooths out the manure clods better than a cultivator can.