Mod for hydraulic pump?

   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #21  
My problem is the pto pump is putting out 1500 pounds pressure at peak output on engine, no stalling problems on engine or lack of power on drives. I have a power rake and it doesn’t have the power on the loader cylinders to pick up the unit when I use for more than 5 min I don’t know what my pressures are then, but when cold ambient temp 68 outside I have max 1500 pounds pressure out of my pump.
Does your PTO pump also power the lift? I don't think so. So maybe your PTO pump is fine, but maybe your STEERING/FEL/QUICK ATTACH pump is weak?
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Does your PTO pump also power the lift? I don't think so. So maybe your PTO pump is fine, but maybe your STEERING/FEL/QUICK ATTACH pump is weak?

The pto powers everything but steering and the drives

I’m only getting 1500 lbs. pressure when cold, Terry said it should be 2500, haven’t tested hot, but I’m sure it falls off when hot,
When hot it will barely pick up a bucket of dirt, never had a PT pucker lol.
Moves very well just no lifting capability.
 
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   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
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#23  
Somewhere on here, I did a calculation and write up about the HP needed for the 425 (I have two 425’s). It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, the 425 needs a full 25 HP when under a full load, such as mowing a slope for example. This makes sense as the 425 has a 25 HP engine, right? Well, not really. The 25 HP rating for the Subaru EH72 is peak horsepower. The continuous horsepower rating is much lower…around 19 HP if I remember correctly. Consequently, I concluded the engine is underpowered for mowing applications.

I went through this study because my engine had failed and I needed to get a new one. I had always suspected the engine was underpowered and wanted to confirm my suspicion. I ended up dropping in a 32 HP Subaru engine because, at the time, it was the only engine available that would mostly fit (still required a LOT of custom modification though). The difference in tractor performance is night and day (I also increased the displacement of the wheel motors).

Now, I'm not recommending you replace your engine again. I’m just suggesting a larger output hydraulic pump may not solve your problem. Unless you are stalling the existing hydraulic motor (or pushing it to the point where the pressure reliefs open) it’s possible the “weak” impression is more a function of engine output than pump output. There’s a lot of issues involved here and it’s hard to make a firm assessment without understanding more about your specific situation. But the easiest way to get more “power” for an attachment is to increase the displacement of the attachment motor (at the expense of motor speed). So, you may want to ensure the fundamental performance problem isn’t engine power, rather than pump output.

If the pump motor is rated for 8-12 gpm does stand to reason if I have 12 gpm flowing on the pump motor that it will have more power than 8 gpm on the same pump?
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
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#25  
I wonder why they didn't make the 2422 plumbed the same as the 422 or 425?

I actually might be wrong ........ : /

There I said it!
Not sure, I have the schematics at home .

Terry gave me a part number fo another pump that would fit mine and it bumps it to a little over 9 gpm by his conversation, I think it is the way I want to go.

Part # p139x1 from power Trac

A good compromise hopefully
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #27  
Catching up with the post stream here...let me ask another question. Are the pumps we're talking about variable displacement or fixed displacement? You can tell by looking for either a pilot hydraulic line (a tiny thing) running to the pump or a wire (for an electrohydraulic or EH) system. I suspect that PT uses a cable on the pedals to stroke the pump's pinnel plate in some of their models, and that's OK too (if kinda old school).

On tram circuits, often there is a variable displacement pump. At idle the pinnel plate is in neutral and even thought the pump is spinning (because it has to - it's mechanically connected to the motor) it's not actually doing much if any work. When you engage the drive, the pinnel tips one way or the other to cause a variable amount of flow to the circuit. So it's kinda weird on the tank turns calculation. Technically at neutral you have infinite tank turns (X gallons of tank / ZERO flow of gal / min) but at full pinnel (or stroke) you get the full rated flow. In part this is where duty cycle comes from for tank turns. Sure you'd turn the tank REAL FAST at full stroke, but how often and for how long do you really tram at full flow? Now that said I've noticed that lots of tramming DOES get things toasty pretty quickly on my PT-425, but not concerningly so thus far. It's not like I drive it miles at a time at full wampum....is more like zip to a pile and zip to someplace else kind of a thing.

That said, to some degree you really should design for the worst case situation that was described earlier. So if you are at full tram, full pto, and somehow full work tool effort on the lift / tilt (how? it's probably possible...) your tank turns get realllllllly small and things get hot. Quick. Like dang hot. But in theory that shouldn't happen too often or too long so often a manufacturer will kinda cheat the calculation a bit.

A fixed displacement pump - like a gear pump, a vane pump, or some low-cost piston pumps - operate in an open loop system where they pump all the time regardless of the control positions and just bypass back to tank when there's no flow to a working circuit. That will also produce a relatively low tank turns calculation too, but since the work being done isn't much (just some flow up and down and around but no real effort) you can run your tank turns down a bit lower than I wrote earlier but it can get risky without a good cooler. On some large yellow machines I'm aware of where the tank turns are a bit on the lower side and you're @riding the cooler@ it pays off to periodically pulse the electric cooling fan backwards to blow the crap out of it so you don't get caught out on heat buildup.

On the very largest wheel loaders - like in mining applications - the drive to the ground is usually either mechanical or electrical, not hystat. One of the big reasons for that is in that size of machine the resulting hydraulic tank size would affect the payload capacity of the machine...because that would be a LOT of oil! Those things are really interesting...but that's a story for another time.
Power-Tracs use a closed loop drive circuit. Oil in the drive circuit is not filtered and does not return to the tank (except for what bypasses and is made up by the charge pump). So, tank turns are not really an issue regarding the VDP.

The charge pump is a gear pump. MossRoad (check out my good memory MR) has reported his 425 will heat up to the point of the fan coming on (when his temp sensor worked) if he cranks the tractor to warm up and shovels snow for a few minutes. In other words, a 425 running 3 gear pumps (charge, PTO, steering etc) will heat the oil considerably doing no work. However, I wouldn't worry much about this issue when considering a larger capacity pump for a PT.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #28  
I actually might be wrong ........ : /

There I said it!
Not sure, I have the schematics at home .

Terry gave me a part number fo another pump that would fit mine and it bumps it to a little over 9 gpm by his conversation, I think it is the way I want to go.

Part # p139x1 from power Trac

A good compromise hopefully
Agreed. If you have really low pressure, it's probably time.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #29  
Power-Tracs use a closed loop drive circuit. Oil in the drive circuit is not filtered and does not return to the tank (except for what bypasses and is made up by the charge pump). So, tank turns are not really an issue regarding the VDP.

The charge pump is a gear pump. MossRoad (check out my good memory MR) has reported his 425 will heat up to the point of the fan coming on (when his temp sensor worked) if he cranks the tractor to warm up and shovels snow for a few minutes. In other words, a 425 running 3 gear pumps (charge, PTO, steering etc) will heat the oil considerably doing no work. However, I wouldn't worry much about this issue when considering a larger capacity pump for a PT.

THAT'S fascinating...the drive circuit loop doesn't pass back to tank...and there's enough thermal mass to keep from completely cooking the oil when tramming for a long time? That's kinda interesting...thanks for the info!
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #30  
That's also kinda cool because if you critically failed an implement - like pumped the implement circuit dry for some reason - you could still drive home. Huh....
 
 
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