More residential well questions

[Valveman]

This may unfortunately be true is some areas. However where I live, the ones I know are exceptionally honest, knowledgeable and not at all out to fleece you. Maybe we are an exception, but I hope not.

Maybe it is because I talk to so many people who are trying to DIY after they have been taken in some way or another by a so called "professional pump installer". But I also sell to a lot of real professional pump installers, and you are correct, good ones do exist. Although, I find that even honest pump installers are tempted to try and sell a VFD system as they make so much more money from that than on a standard pump system. The installers are also being lied to as the manufacturers are pushing VFD's because they also make a lot more money than on a normal pump system. Saying a VFD saves energy or makes pumps last longer is just not true. But they say it over and over until people believe it and spend several times more on their pump system than they should.

I don't blame them though. They can offer to sell someone a standard old reliable pump system for 2K or a fancy new device that is supposed to save energy and make pumps last longer for 5K. They would be crazy not to take your money if you decided you wanted to spend 5K instead of 2K. But I don't know how honest that is.

 

[Cougsfan]

VFD's do have their place, for instance if you have a large lawn sprinkling system with uneven numbers of sprinklers per zone. But matching the VFD to the pump's curve to maintain the required pressure and flow rates, along with providing a control system that will really take advantage of the VFD (which is to reduce pump cycling while maintaining pressure at various flow rates) can be a pretty tricky task that the average pump guy may or may not be able to set up correctly.

And you are absolutely right, Valveman. For the average homeowner a VFD is overkill and wasted money. You may be spending $2 or 3K in total to avoid having a $150 capacitors replacement every 5-10 years or so (and have a $500 - $1200 VFD or controller replacement instead)

For retrofits, the VFD's require 3 phase power, versus 2 phase for conventional systems, which can mean a very large electrical service change fee. So VFDs might make more sense on new installations where you need to to provide a new power source, but even then I'd say it is highly questionable if it is worth it.

 

[steve tym]

In some cases, going VFD is the cheaper option.
Most VFD's designed for residential well systems do not require 3 phase power. Matter of fact, none do. It would always be cost prohibitive to bring 3 phase power into a house.

 

[Cougsfan]

I honestly had never heard of them, but you are right, Steve, But as I do a quick research, many people say that the quality of a single phase vfd is considerably less than a 3 phase vfd. And I know from experience that 3 phase vfd themselves vary considerably in the quality of the sine wave they produce

 

[Sportsman762]

A few questions:
* Is the well a screened well (casing to a screen) or is it open bore (casing to rock then a hole drilled through the rock)
** If the well is screened how long is the screen?
** If the well is an open bore how long is the casing?
* What depth is the pump hung at? (how far below the surface is the pump)
* Can you provide more details on the failed casing? Did the driller send an inspection camera down and tell you it was breached at XX feet?
* What state are you in? There is significant differences in well construction by state. For example in Valveman's area (Lubbock TX) I doubt they require underground discharge at 6' or more like they do in MN.

Without knowing all the details I am going to make the assumption that the casing is not breached. If the casing is breached then your going to need to get a new well. Not all drillers are good at fishing. (a fish is what is stuck in the well you want out) Fishing requires lots of different tools then drilling, and different skills. Valveman has hit the nail on the head.

There is not much room between a 3.75" pump and 4" steel casing.

Call a few well companies and see what they say, if one gives you a name of who they believe is the best fisher then go with them. A competent well company that knows how to fish will have a good assortment of tools to get the job done.

Maybe it is because I talk to so many people who are trying to DIY after they have been taken in some way or another by a so called "professional pump installer". But I also sell to a lot of real professional pump installers, and you are correct, good ones do exist.

It is challenging to sort out a good from a bad driller. That is why I like to talk to several, and if one driller recommends another you know they have to be good. (guy I worked for did not even have signs on the side of his truck because he had too much business, all of them recommendations)

First thing they will do is try to clean the pump off using water and / or air. Then they will start working the pump free. 1" galvanized pipe is the best thing you can ask for when dealing with a stuck pump in my opinion. You can work it up and down, to clear obstructions. Try pushing on an aircraft cable. Also if the galvanized pipe breaks it is easy to get an overshot to set on it to resume the pull. If you break the pump head off a nice pointy taper tap will go right through the motor and pull it out.

Once the pump is out you need to fix the problem on how well is getting sediment. If it is an open bore then it just needs cleaned out. If it is a screened well then the screen most likely needs replaced.

For a new well, I like an PVC casing with galvanized drop pipe, in some situations a metal casing can be better, and the driller will advise. But that is my opinion. Galvanized is easier to fish and hold the pump more stable, PVC never rusts out and is more affordable, neither is wrong, both have their place and there is a strong personal preference.

PVC drop pipe is a better choice.
Don't install a safety cable of any description. I have never rescued a pump because of one, but have lost some.
2 wire motors last for a decade, 3 wire motors last for decades.
Family business now for 87 years, been doing it since I was 7.

Safety cables are a pain to deal with when they break and coil up around the top of the pump. It makes retrieving the pump much harder.

The driller will determine if the well is an open bore or screened well, how deep to drill, what size screen if needed or how deep to set the casing. This varies by region, and what works in one area will not work in others. I know where I was working a quarter mile could make a significant difference in what attributes a good well needed. If it is a screened well I would go with a stainless screen held in by a k-packer. I abhor slotted casing. I would use a 3 wire pump as others have mentioned.

I would also go with a spool type of underground discharge such as the ones shown on page 6. They are easy to get to seal, limit what can fall into the well, and rarely stick.

http://www.whitewatermfg.net/pitless_adapter-brochure_11-15-08.pdf

Next best is the V notch type. They are bit more of a pain to set and if junk falls into one once you have removed the drop pipe can make it hard to get one to seal. They also take up room in the casing.

Merrill Manufacturing

Merrill Manufacturing Pitless Adapters have passed CERTIFIED WATERTIGHT STANDARDS PAS-1, PAS-97(2019), ASSE Standard #1093-2019 established and regulated for the industry by the Pitless Adapter Division of Water Systems Council. Bottom of the Male Part and the Top of the Female are Tapered -...

www.merrillmfg.com

I hate snappy's. I cause bodily harm to the person who invented them if we ever met. The pain they have caused me. (actually they have made me a ton of money. Get to sell the customer a new underground discharge and charge for the backhoe to dig the old one out after they freeze up and the aircraft cable snaps) We had several special tools to try to free them up, but sometimes they would win and we had to get the backhoe. They are the worst to tell if they are set correctly and will drop without warning if not properly seated.

Snappy Pitless Adapter

www.bakerwatersystems.com

I agree with Valveman and am not sold on VFD pumps for normal usage. In certain situations they make sense such as cabins where a pressure tank is one more thing you have to drain prior to winter.

The installers are also being lied to as the manufacturers are pushing VFD's because they also make a lot more money than on a normal pump system. Saying a VFD saves energy or makes pumps last longer is just not true. But they say it over and over until people believe it and spend several times more on their pump system than they should.

The guy I worked with did mostly fishing. It was not uncommon to have to retrieve another company's tools they lost before we could start pulling the pump. Minnesota had a law that if a house sold all wells had to be functioning or they had to be pulled and sealed, health department was adamant we get everything out but the screen. Many of the wells had not been functioning since the 60's. Dirt on a pump was a normal situation, as was drilling out cemented in wells that lacked proper paperwork. Your well assuming no breached casing sounds like standard work.

 

[Cub 7275]

Great info Sportsman, thanks.

Well location is SE Michigan.

From the 1971 well record: 4" threaded steel casing 97' depth. Drive shoe = yes. Johnson 4" diameter screen 20 slot/gauze 3' long set between 94 and 97 feet. K packer 12" blank 3" plug. Static water level 45'. Pumping level below land surface 55' after 4 hours 20 gpm.

Starting at the top 3' stony clay, 8' coarse gravel, 6' fine water sand, 32' clay, 15' stony clay, 8' sandy clay, 4' water sand, 10' clay, 3' stony clay, 8' water sand medium. It notes that at 76' they set a 12 slot screen but it would not produce enough water.

From previous home owner's receipts the pump was replaced in 1991 with a 1/2HP Goulds pump and 68' of 1" galvanized drop pipe was used. In 2001 the 1" pipe and wires between the house and the well were replaced using polyline. The neighboring wells are around 100' deep.

After 52 years in the ground I find it hard to believe that unprotected carbon steel pipe is not compromised. And assuming by some miracle it isn't, how many more years does it have left?

 

[ponytug]

Great info Sportsman, thanks.

Well location is SE Michigan.

From the 1971 well record: 4" threaded steel casing 97' depth. Drive shoe = yes. Johnson 4" diameter screen 20 slot/gauze 3' long set between 94 and 97 feet. K packer 12" blank 3" plug. Static water level 45'. Pumping level below land surface 55' after 4 hours 20 gpm.

Starting at the top 3' stony clay, 8' coarse gravel, 6' fine water sand, 32' clay, 15' stony clay, 8' sandy clay, 4' water sand, 10' clay, 3' stony clay, 8' water sand medium. It notes that at 76' they set a 12 slot screen but it would not produce enough water.

From previous home owner's receipts the pump was replaced in 1991 with a 1/2HP Goulds pump and 68' of 1" galvanized drop pipe was used. In 2001 the 1" pipe and wires between the house and the well were replaced using polyline. The neighboring wells are around 100' deep.

After 52 years in the ground I find it hard to believe that unprotected carbon steel pipe is not compromised. And assuming by some miracle it isn't, how many more years does it have left?

Your local water chemistry is going to be the key to knowing almost everything about the possible lifetime of your steel casing, with a minor amount of local ground currents and the quality of the original pipe. I think that your best guess is how long your neighbors' well casings are lasting. For most steel water pipes, in typical water, the corrosion happens at a pretty narrow band where atmospheric oxygen gets to the water. That's way above where your pump is supposed to be according to your well report above, so it would not be my first thought for a cause on the jamming. Anything is possible, but not in my top three, especially in SE Michigan. You have great alluvial soils and aquifers generally, though not insignificant amounts of iron typically.

To your underlying issue(s), I thought that @Sportsman762 laid out the issues pretty clearly.

What isn't clear to me is what your actual problem in the well is. It sounds like your recent well team fluffed something, but "hey, boss, sorry, the pump stuck coming up" leaves a lot out of the answer to my way of thinking. Until someone runs a borescope down your well to see what is up, I think nobody knows for sure, and it would provide a lot of information on the cause and possible solutions. It may be something very simple, and with a bit of fishing around, all that you need to do is put a new pump and waterline in. Or not.

I would get on the calendar to have the well folks back to pull your pump, since you seem to have a pump issue, and in the interim ask them, or another well group, for a borescope examination of the well, so everyone knows what they are up against.

FWIW: Around here, good practice would have been to set your pump deeper, but I suspect that is a reflection of the general lack of reliability of water tables here due to droughts, unlike SE Michigan. It is only a few bucks more in pipe and wire.

All the best,

Peter

 

[nyone]

After 52 years in the ground I find it hard to believe that unprotected carbon steel pipe is not compromised. And assuming by some miracle it isn't, how many more years does it have left

Your making assumptions and that gets costly quick.

 

[ponytug]

Oh, if your well hasn't actually failed, I would have them clean it out while they have the pump out as you are having sand and sediment issues.

All the best,

Peter

 

[steve tym]

Oh yeah, Snappy pitlesses. 4" well with a 4" (3.75") pump is the only place I see for them. Other than that, stick with Mr. Martinson's design.

 

[paulsharvey]

Steel casing? Is it the 1930s? PVC casing, around here residential would be a choice of 3" or 4"; with ag or multiple residential in a 6". Nothing wrong with PVC Sch80, but I like the idea of a lift cable.

 

[Valveman]

VFD's do have their place, for instance if you have a large lawn sprinkling system with uneven numbers of sprinklers per zone. But matching the VFD to the pump's curve to maintain the required pressure and flow rates, along with providing a control system that will really take advantage of the VFD (which is to reduce pump cycling while maintaining pressure at various flow rates) can be a pretty tricky task that the average pump guy may or may not be able to set up correctly.

And you are absolutely right, Valveman. For the average homeowner a VFD is overkill and wasted money. You may be spending $2 or 3K in total to avoid having a $150 capacitors replacement every 5-10 years or so (and have a $500 - $1200 VFD or controller replacement instead)

For retrofits, the VFD's require 3 phase power, versus 2 phase for conventional systems, which can mean a very large electrical service change fee. So VFDs might make more sense on new installations where you need to to provide a new power source, but even then I'd say it is highly questionable if it is worth it.

VFD's do have there place. I have one on a hydraulic pump for a plastic injection machine, another for a conveyor belt system, and even treadmills benefit from a VFD. But for any pump with a centrifugal impeller a VFD should be as rare as hen's teeth. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the pump speed. What that means is you can't slow a centrifugal pump down very much or it won't produce any pressure or even get water to the surface of the well. 10% is about as much as you can slow a correctly sized centrifugal pump down and still produce pressure and flow. That doesn't leave much room for a VFD to work or cause ANY savings in energy, as energy required actually goes up not down when the pump speed is reduced.

The average pump guy these days is much more likely to be able to program a VFD than to actually know how a pump works, how to manually adjust a control valve, or to know that a VFD is not needed. Pump manufacturers make VFD's with simple setups and give classes on how to program them. They often tell installers they no longer even need to know how pumps work, just install a VFD and any pump will do any job you want. Of course none of that is true and an easy set up VFD doesn't have the parameters needed to properly control a pump. They add in "sleep" mode, "bump up" mode, and many other things to keep people from having to do the math and set things correctly, because every pump system would need different settings.

While a VFD can keep the pump from cycling on and off for scenarios like large lawn sprinklers with uneven zones, a control valve like a Cycle Stop Valve can do that even better for a fraction of the price, without all the complications of a VFD, and will make the pump last several times longer than a VFD. But that makes the Cycle Stop Valve a "disruptive product" to the pump industry, and they will do everything in their power to keep people from knowing about it or using one. They will even try to make people believe a VFD is the only way to vary the flow from a pump and using a CSV will damage pumps. Most people don't realize restricting a pump with a valve actually makes the pump work easier and run cooler. People have it in their heads that valving off flow from a pump is bad, and pump manufacturers just let people use their own superstitions against themselves. If you don't know a valve makes a pump work easier, they are not going to tell you any different.

They make VFD's that convert single phase house power to three phase to run a three phase motor. They also make single phase drives now that will run a single phase motor. They will pretty much do what ever is needed to make it easy to install a VFD on a house well, as that is incredibly good for their bottom line. I think capitalism is a good thing. But end users need to realize everything is made with planned obsolescence as a top priority and educate themselves to keep from being taken to the cleaners.

 

[Valveman]

In some cases, going VFD is the cheaper option.
Most VFD's designed for residential well systems do not require 3 phase power. Matter of fact, none do. It would always be cost prohibitive to bring 3 phase power into a house.

I have been to the classes at the pump distributors as well. They teach using a three phase motor is not only less expensive, but uses smaller and much less expensive wire. Along with the ability to use a smaller pressure tank this can make a VFD system less expensive than a large pressure tank system, especially on a deep well that needs a long wire to the bottom.

However, with a VFD, the longer the wire the higher the voltage spikes to the motor and the more problems you will have. Over the years I have helped many people go back and install larger wire, throwing the smaller wire away, and replacing the three phase motor with a single phase motor, just to get back to a standard type system that will last. After replacing the VFD 2-5 times and usually the pump a time or two over a few short years, they realize cheaper is not less expensive.

 

[Valveman]

Great info Sportsman, thanks.

Well location is SE Michigan.

From the 1971 well record: 4" threaded steel casing 97' depth. Drive shoe = yes. Johnson 4" diameter screen 20 slot/gauze 3' long set between 94 and 97 feet. K packer 12" blank 3" plug. Static water level 45'. Pumping level below land surface 55' after 4 hours 20 gpm.

Starting at the top 3' stony clay, 8' coarse gravel, 6' fine water sand, 32' clay, 15' stony clay, 8' sandy clay, 4' water sand, 10' clay, 3' stony clay, 8' water sand medium. It notes that at 76' they set a 12 slot screen but it would not produce enough water.

From previous home owner's receipts the pump was replaced in 1991 with a 1/2HP Goulds pump and 68' of 1" galvanized drop pipe was used. In 2001 the 1" pipe and wires between the house and the well were replaced using polyline. The neighboring wells are around 100' deep.

After 52 years in the ground I find it hard to believe that unprotected carbon steel pipe is not compromised. And assuming by some miracle it isn't, how many more years does it have left?

Wells in different parts of the country are done differently. We use 5", 6", and 8" PVC casing down to about 300'. 10", 12" and 16" casing and anything deeper than 300' gets steel casing. Most use Mill slots or wire screen at the bottom and all are gravel packed between the casing and larger well wall. Municipal wells are usually all Stainless Steel these days, which is very expensive but long lasting.

4" steel casing with a Drive shoe means hard drilling and they probably drive the casing down as they drill. 20 slot/gauze between 94' and 97' means the bottom of the motor needs to be set above 94'. I wouldn't give up on the old well. Sticking a pump in 4" casing is a common problem. If they can get it out, just go back with the 3" pump, which was not even available when your pump was installed back then.

 

[Sportsman762]

Oh yeah, Snappy pitlesses. 4" well with a 4" (3.75") pump is the only place I see for them. Other than that, stick with Mr. Martinson's design.

A spool uses a 5" or so casing above the pitless so you have zero protrusion into the well. They are nice to work on.

From the 1971 well record: 4" threaded steel casing 97' depth. Drive shoe = yes. Johnson 4" diameter screen 20 slot/gauze 3' long set between 94 and 97 feet. K packer 12" blank 3" plug. Static water level 45'. Pumping level below land surface 55' after 4 hours 20 gpm.

Thanks for posting the well log. Makes life easier. You have a screened well, it has a reasonable draw down. If you have to replace it I would do the same depth, with the same screen.

Starting at the top 3' stony clay, 8' coarse gravel, 6' fine water sand, 32' clay, 15' stony clay, 8' sandy clay, 4' water sand, 10' clay, 3' stony clay, 8' water sand medium. It notes that at 76' they set a 12 slot screen but it would not produce enough water.

This is the one advantage of metal casing you fail to hit the water you want you can always drive it deeper.

From previous home owner's receipts the pump was replaced in 1991 with a 1/2HP Goulds pump and 68' of 1" galvanized drop pipe was used. In 2001 the 1" pipe and wires between the house and the well were replaced using polyline. The neighboring wells are around 100' deep.

Goulds was a good pump, they should have replaced the pipe in 91 when they replaced the pump. I rarely ever put a pump back with original pipe. This way you don't have another service call a decade later.

After 52 years in the ground I find it hard to believe that unprotected carbon steel pipe is not compromised. And assuming by some miracle it isn't, how many more years does it have left?

I have worked on wells with casings that were put in in the late 1800's. So depending on your water and prior owner's (no bleach) it could last a fair bit longer, or none at all. A driller can estimate case conditions when they stick a camera down the well.

I think that your best guess is how long your neighbors' well casings are lasting. For most steel water pipes, in typical water, the corrosion happens at a pretty narrow band where atmospheric oxygen gets to the water.

It also can happen if there is electrolysis between geological formations. My parents well went out right at the coal / clay seam for example.

If the last company did not send a camera down the well and tell you where the casing was breached I would not call them back. It is the first step if your having any problems pulling a pump.

It sounds like your recent well team fluffed something, but "hey, boss, sorry, the pump stuck coming up" leaves a lot out of the answer to my way of thinking. Until someone runs a borescope down your well to see what is up, I think nobody knows for sure, and it would provide a lot of information on the cause and possible solutions. It may be something very simple, and with a bit of fishing around, all that you need to do is put a new pump and waterline in. Or not.

As ponytug stated all we can do is speculate, once a competent company looks at the well they will come up with a plan of attack.

I would first find out if the casing was breached.
If it is then I would put in a similar well.

• 97' casing (your choice on materials.
• 3' of 12 slot stainless screen on a k-packer.
• Spool type pitless adapter
• 3" 3 wire pump

If they can get it out, just go back with the 3" pump, which was not even available when your pump was installed back then.

IF the casing is not breached, I would have another company pull the well out. The prior company does not sound like the best option for a challenging well.

• I would first send a camera down to see what is going on.
• Then i would clean the pump off using air.
• Next I would start pulling it. After that it all depends on the cooperation of the pump.
• Once the pump is pulled I would air lift the well to see how it is producing. If production is poor or there is sediment I would consider replacing the screen. I would also send the camera down to see the condition of the screen. Back then screens sometimes were galvanized and would rust out. You might have smaller sediment getting by and that destroyed the fins on the pump. Another option is that the screen is plugged and the pump ran dry damaging it.
• Once everything checked out I would put a new wire, and drop pipe in.

Let us know what you end up finding out. Its interesting to see how things are done in different areas.

Wells is different parts of the country are done differently.

 

[brokeasajoke]

Pulled mine last fall and it was difficult to get up. Must have been silt up to the intake ports on the side of the pump. I assume the silt was suctioning it keeping us from just lifting it. After much fiddling up and down as it would only pull up about 4", it broke free and we took one section of pipe off when I put the new pump in.

 

[Egon]

What to do is the question?

To start with my knowledge is quite limited.

With that said I’d recommend a new well be installed with all the currently proper equipment. It’s a straight forward procedure At a known cost. There is a know/proven water bearing formation available. Reworking the present well may end up being less expensive as well as ending up with a system not really up to todays standards.

 

[paulsharvey]

What to do is the question?

To start with my knowledge is quite limited.

With that said I’d recommend a new well be installed with all the currently proper equipment. It’s a straight forward procedure At a known cost. There is a know/proven water bearing formation available. Reworking the present well may end up being less expensive as well as ending up with a system not really up to todays standards.

That 'known' cost is probably $10k vs $1k to pull, and $500 for pump, to pull and replace.

 

[Egon]

That 'known' cost is probably $10k vs $1k to pull, and $500 for pump, to pull and replace.

Yes, just add that $1k to the new well Cost’s!

 

[paulsharvey]

About 6 years ago, our well pump was failing. It's 105 ft, sand well, 4" pvc sch40 casing, 3" pump, with 1" sch80 threaded down pipe, 2 wire. I called around, as I was definitely intimidated by working on it. Got 3 quotes; #1: $1000 plus pump; #2; $999 plus pump; #3: $950+$1/foot, plus pump; all said that price was based on straight back truck up to well and pull, any obstacles or complications would be more. End up pulling it myself, and going back with a $350 2-wire, 4" pump from lowes. The new 4" is about 3 ft higher in the casing than the old one, as fine sediment had worked is way it through the sand point.

I just started pulling, and it came up; biggest problem was, even though Sch80 is pretty stiff, when you get 60 ft of it into the air, it doubled back and jammed on the ground. Had to hold it there, and Yell for wife (who was inside) to come lead the end out as I finished pulling. There Had been a galv cable on it, but it was gone. I did add a poly rope when I set the new one.

The 2 vs 3 wire thing seems to be an ongoing debate. Seems like most new ones are 3 wire, and I've heard far more problems, and 5-10 year life spans; when the old 2 wires would often last 30 years. Down side is, capacitor, if that $20 part goes bad on a 2 wire, you need to pull pump, and likely replace. Flip side, the control boxes seem to go bad at an alarming rate, between weather and ants, and those boxes aren't cheap.

Add; when I say I put 4" pump in a 4" casing; it's a 4" Nominal size pump, ment for a 4" casing, so its probably 3.5-3.75" true diameter. Also, we go though pressure switches like crazy, because when it rains a lot, ants/lizards/frogs get into switch where it's dry and warm, and they end up getting between contacts and burning contact points up, and letting smoke out of their butts...