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MikeFromVA
Silver Member
Bandit - My Case dealer is charging $17,500 for the same setup that you paid $13,400 for - go figure? It looks like a pretty nice tractor but it soundslike they don't have too many in my area yet.
More tractor buying advice.
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Bob_Skurka
Super Member
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Hi Bob!
The L2800/3400 tractors are in the price range of some of the other machines offered here, but offer a larger machine with a full cat.-1 hitch and Kubota qulality. I don't know if he wants hst or anything else that the other tractors might offer (live PTO, air conditioning, dancing girls, etc.) but I think that these Kubotas go largely unnoticed. Whether this is due to the fact that they are new for this year or because the dealers don't push them (had a dealer actually tell me they weren't made anymore...Sheesh!) 'cause they don't make enough on them isn't clear to me. Being practical, I'll often choose a stripped 1-ton truck over a 1/2 ton with cruise control and a 6 cd changer for the same money. Plus, it sounds like he has the room for a slightly larger machine. )</font>
Fair enough, now I see where you are coming from.
The L2800/3400 tractors are in the price range of some of the other machines offered here, but offer a larger machine with a full cat.-1 hitch and Kubota qulality. I don't know if he wants hst or anything else that the other tractors might offer (live PTO, air conditioning, dancing girls, etc.) but I think that these Kubotas go largely unnoticed. Whether this is due to the fact that they are new for this year or because the dealers don't push them (had a dealer actually tell me they weren't made anymore...Sheesh!) 'cause they don't make enough on them isn't clear to me. Being practical, I'll often choose a stripped 1-ton truck over a 1/2 ton with cruise control and a 6 cd changer for the same money. Plus, it sounds like he has the room for a slightly larger machine. )</font>
Fair enough, now I see where you are coming from.
bandit67
Veteran Member
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- Lake Hartwell, SC
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- 2012 B3000 HSDCC 2020 Z251 Zero Turn
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Bandit - My Case dealer is charging $17,500 for the same setup that you paid $13,400 for - go figure? It looks like a pretty nice tractor but it soundslike they don't have too many in my area yet. )</font>
Wow! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I wonder if my dealer would be willing to ship one to you - even at around $1000 for shipping, you'd still be saving 3 grand over your local dealer- geez! Guess that puts the Case out of the running for you.
Wow! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I wonder if my dealer would be willing to ship one to you - even at around $1000 for shipping, you'd still be saving 3 grand over your local dealer- geez! Guess that puts the Case out of the running for you.
familyman
Platinum Member
I'd like to add, Bob, that the more I use my machine, the smaller it gets. That's not to say I feel undergunned -- to the contrary, the L2800 fits my needs perfectly. I am saying that each time I pull down a big tree (having done some cutting first, of course), dig up a stump or move logs/earth/stone etc., I'm relieved that I didn't go with the B7800 or JD4110 that I first considered. They're fine machines too, but I like having some size and sturdiness in reserve.
Charley
Charley
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MikeFromVA
Silver Member
I'm looking hard at the MF GC2300 and it has raised some questions...
1. What is the difference between an engine that's rated at 22.5 HP @ 2600 RPM (MF) and one thats 22.5 HP @ 3000 RPM (Deere)? Their dispacement is 68.5 vs 61.4. Does that mean that the MF is actually stronger than the Deere?
2. How important is the pump output of the hydraulics? I realize that it only matters for loaders and other implements that don't use PTO, but should I care if one is 5.5 GPM and another is 6.1?
3. Some SCUTs call their 3 pt hitch a LIMITED Cat 1 while others just say it's a Cat 1. What makes one "limited" and not another? Is it the weight capacity? The measurements? I'm wondering if they are all the same but one dealer is being more upfront about the limitations of the SCUT.
The MF GC2300 looks like it bests the Deere in most categories. I will be test driving one on Friday. Are they about the same as far as reliability goes?
I don't get too much from my 5 minute test drives (the tractors have no mowers or FELs). What should I be looking for during the time?
1. What is the difference between an engine that's rated at 22.5 HP @ 2600 RPM (MF) and one thats 22.5 HP @ 3000 RPM (Deere)? Their dispacement is 68.5 vs 61.4. Does that mean that the MF is actually stronger than the Deere?
2. How important is the pump output of the hydraulics? I realize that it only matters for loaders and other implements that don't use PTO, but should I care if one is 5.5 GPM and another is 6.1?
3. Some SCUTs call their 3 pt hitch a LIMITED Cat 1 while others just say it's a Cat 1. What makes one "limited" and not another? Is it the weight capacity? The measurements? I'm wondering if they are all the same but one dealer is being more upfront about the limitations of the SCUT.
The MF GC2300 looks like it bests the Deere in most categories. I will be test driving one on Friday. Are they about the same as far as reliability goes?
I don't get too much from my 5 minute test drives (the tractors have no mowers or FELs). What should I be looking for during the time?
familyman
Platinum Member
"There's no replacement for displacement."
That old saying goes back to the 60's (?) when street and drag racing successfully usually meant a big block motor. Nowadays', the dopey kids with their hats on sideways "race" around in little rollerskates with motors under 200ci displacement. To get these toys moving, they have to rev the p!$$ out of the motors -- high rpm's is the only way they make power.
Having said that, the smaller of the two motors you describe can make up for its' lesser displacement in one of two ways: 1) increase the compression, which has a number of drawbacks, or 2) design the intake/exhaust/valve timing/injection to make power up higher in the rpm range, in this case 400rpm higher.
The tractor maker who used the smaller engine probably did it for reasons of economy and/or profit which would bore you more than the rest of this post. Yes, for tractor use, an engine with its' power lower in the rpm scale would be more user friendly.
The hydraulic pump output is important for running any implements (fel, phd, bh etc.) Here bigger is better.
The same applies to limited cat.1 vs. cat.1. I've seen too many posts where s-cut owners complain that their limited 3ph gave them problems mounting or using a phd or other implement.
I hope this helps.
Charley
That old saying goes back to the 60's (?) when street and drag racing successfully usually meant a big block motor. Nowadays', the dopey kids with their hats on sideways "race" around in little rollerskates with motors under 200ci displacement. To get these toys moving, they have to rev the p!$$ out of the motors -- high rpm's is the only way they make power.
Having said that, the smaller of the two motors you describe can make up for its' lesser displacement in one of two ways: 1) increase the compression, which has a number of drawbacks, or 2) design the intake/exhaust/valve timing/injection to make power up higher in the rpm range, in this case 400rpm higher.
The tractor maker who used the smaller engine probably did it for reasons of economy and/or profit which would bore you more than the rest of this post. Yes, for tractor use, an engine with its' power lower in the rpm scale would be more user friendly.
The hydraulic pump output is important for running any implements (fel, phd, bh etc.) Here bigger is better.
The same applies to limited cat.1 vs. cat.1. I've seen too many posts where s-cut owners complain that their limited 3ph gave them problems mounting or using a phd or other implement.
I hope this helps.
Charley
OP
MikeFromVA
Silver Member
Thanks for the reply Charley. I thought that displacement was the more important number. In SCUTs the displacecment varies from 54.8 (Kubota BX2230) to 68.5 (MF GC2300)even though they only claim a difference of ½ HP. Shows how they can tweak the numbers to make them say what they want.
That is why I am asking about the Cat 1 vs. limited Cat 1. How can I tell which is which? I mean some SCUTs claim a full Cat 1 (NH & MF) and I want a full Cat 1 - how can I tell if they are blowing smoke?
That is why I am asking about the Cat 1 vs. limited Cat 1. How can I tell which is which? I mean some SCUTs claim a full Cat 1 (NH & MF) and I want a full Cat 1 - how can I tell if they are blowing smoke?
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
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I think familyman gave an excellent explination. The higher gpm on the hydraulic pumps will give you some quicker movement of your FEL, in practical terms to users, unless there is a large difference, you probably won't notice a difference of less than 1 gpm on most machines. So from the user standpoint 5.5gpm versus 6.1 is going to feel very similar, technically 6.1 is better.
As far as the cat 1 versus limited cat 1 hitches, this is a point of debate that has occured several times. Someone posted a while ago that thier JD sales rep told them the hitch on the JD2210 is a Limited Cat 1 hitch. I never confirmed that. The BX hitch is pretty well documented to be limited. Some people have swapped out the lower link arms with larger ones, others have drilled theirs to alter the geometry, many have modified their implements. To my knowledge, and I admit this is limited, in the SUB-CUT category the MF and the NH are the two that have full Cat 1 hitches. Or at least it seems to be that way. There are other small tractors that occasionally get lumped into the SUB-CUT class, but really are small frame CUTs like the Kioti CK20 (which is basically the same size as a Kubota B7510 or NH TC21), at that size machine, all have Cat 1 hitches. Personally I would not buy a machine that had a limited Cat 1 hitch, but lots of other people do and are quite happy. You need to ask what implements you want to use and then let that help be a deciding factor. I swap implments between different machines, I need to have a Cat 1 hitch; others may not have that need.
In terms of reliability, understand anyone can buy a "lemon" of a machine from any brand, but that aside, I think you'll find that MF, NH, JD, and Kubota all make outstanding Sub-CUTs.
As far as the cat 1 versus limited cat 1 hitches, this is a point of debate that has occured several times. Someone posted a while ago that thier JD sales rep told them the hitch on the JD2210 is a Limited Cat 1 hitch. I never confirmed that. The BX hitch is pretty well documented to be limited. Some people have swapped out the lower link arms with larger ones, others have drilled theirs to alter the geometry, many have modified their implements. To my knowledge, and I admit this is limited, in the SUB-CUT category the MF and the NH are the two that have full Cat 1 hitches. Or at least it seems to be that way. There are other small tractors that occasionally get lumped into the SUB-CUT class, but really are small frame CUTs like the Kioti CK20 (which is basically the same size as a Kubota B7510 or NH TC21), at that size machine, all have Cat 1 hitches. Personally I would not buy a machine that had a limited Cat 1 hitch, but lots of other people do and are quite happy. You need to ask what implements you want to use and then let that help be a deciding factor. I swap implments between different machines, I need to have a Cat 1 hitch; others may not have that need.
In terms of reliability, understand anyone can buy a "lemon" of a machine from any brand, but that aside, I think you'll find that MF, NH, JD, and Kubota all make outstanding Sub-CUTs.
OP
MikeFromVA
Silver Member
Thanks Bob. I'm not sure that the SCUT is what I want/need anymore. I think that you said that at the beginning (that SCUT might be a tad too small). I would rather spend a few thousand more now and have what I need for the next 10 years. I am considering the JD 4110/4115 and the Kubota B7510/B2410. I will be spending this Friday at some dealers. I agree with you that I will not but a machine with a "Limited" Cat 1 hitch.
SteveM
Gold Member
I think this limited Cat 1 topic gets a little more 'press' than it deserves here on TBN. Whenever you buy an implement, I recommend you take your measuring tape and measure the width of the pins, and the height of the pins from the ground when the implement is lowered and raised. Then you compare these measurements against your 3pt arms to make certain they can spread wide enough, and lift high enough. It is not rocket science. You will find that regardless of the tractor type, all new implements require a little 'fiddling' to get things just right.
With the advent of the king kutter XB implements, there are now a nice set of cheap alternatives that fit the sub CUTs. On my small Mitsu 370 I have to turn regular implement pins inward, and I have to be very careful about the lifting height of an implement, since my arms dont go very high. The XB line fits my tractor perfectly.
With the advent of the king kutter XB implements, there are now a nice set of cheap alternatives that fit the sub CUTs. On my small Mitsu 370 I have to turn regular implement pins inward, and I have to be very careful about the lifting height of an implement, since my arms dont go very high. The XB line fits my tractor perfectly.