My letter to Kioti, loader rerepair, long

Bob_Skurka · Jun 7, 2006

Or maybe it is not a widespread problem as Kioti seems to indicate via dealers?

Wallace indicates something quite to the contrary. I would say he knows more about what is going on than most. Myself, along with many others, trust his word. 

Hodak, I think you need to re-read what you wrote.

I asked if the problem is NOT a widespread problem. You said the Wallace indicates the contrary. That means that Wallace is saying this is a widespread problem.

Bob_Skurka · Jun 7, 2006

Or maybe it is not a widespread problem as Kioti seems to indicate via dealers?

Wallace indicates something quite to the contrary. I would say he knows more about what is going on than most. Myself, along with many others, trust his word. 

Hodak, I think you need to re-read what you wrote.

I asked if the problem is NOT a widespread problem. You said the Wallace indicates the contrary. That means that Wallace is saying this is a widespread problem.

dholly · Jun 7, 2006

( -I don't care who scratched up or damaged the "new" loader frame or who is at fault for accepting it. It is either the dealer's fault, the shipper's fault, or Kioti's. I bought a loader with a professional quality finish on it and that's what I deserve to have returned to me after the warranty work is done. I am already damaged by being made wait an additional week for this plus the unknown of whether or not the paint job will be done right. These new damages are starting to wear on me.)

Unfortunately, rightly or wrong, as --it all rolls downhill into your lap on this one and you are forced to deal with it. Seems clear to me at this point Kioti IS trying. In this latest twist, it would appear either the dealer damaged the new loader or accepted a new loader damaged in shipping. Well then, the buck stops there. Even if they realized it was damaged and felt compelled to accept it, IMHO, they should have contacted you ASAP and asked whether you would prefer to wait even longer for another replacement (and trust it comes in unscathed) or, if it is a simple paint touch-up, to go that route.

I realize in your mind there is an element of trust in their ability to paint it properly however, at the least, that would have given them the opportunity to place blame where blame was due and allow a claim against the shipper if that were the case. Now, by virture of another bad decision of their own doing, they are made to look like a bad guy again, and deservedly so.

It is very frustrating when things snowball from bad to worse due to circumstances beyond our own control. It is totally unacceptable when it is easily avoidable or the result of simple incompetence by others. Why for the life of me, assuming the dealer has a replacement loader on site, they haven't offered you a swap is totally beyond me. And frankly, so too is why you haven't taken that demand to the Kioti Customer Service Rep at this point. You are a far more patient man than I but, knock on wood, either way it sounds like you will be back in business real soon.

It's easy to coach from the sidelines, but KJ's and gamble's comments make perfect sense to me. Expecting a total loader re-design in even a few months is hardly realistic, IMHO. Sure, they could/should advise dealers that they are aware of and working with the loader manufacturer to address a stress crack issue but, like Highbeam is well aware, talk is cheap. Since this doesn't appear to an issue of immediate or catastrophic loader failure concern, it seems only feasible for Kioti to devise and plan an appropriate long-term solution before issuing any 'formal' TSB notice to dealers. In the interim, they better figure out how to provide an acceptable short-term customer service solution to owners.

dholly · Jun 7, 2006

( -I don't care who scratched up or damaged the "new" loader frame or who is at fault for accepting it. It is either the dealer's fault, the shipper's fault, or Kioti's. I bought a loader with a professional quality finish on it and that's what I deserve to have returned to me after the warranty work is done. I am already damaged by being made wait an additional week for this plus the unknown of whether or not the paint job will be done right. These new damages are starting to wear on me.)

Unfortunately, rightly or wrong, as --it all rolls downhill into your lap on this one and you are forced to deal with it. Seems clear to me at this point Kioti IS trying. In this latest twist, it would appear either the dealer damaged the new loader or accepted a new loader damaged in shipping. Well then, the buck stops there. Even if they realized it was damaged and felt compelled to accept it, IMHO, they should have contacted you ASAP and asked whether you would prefer to wait even longer for another replacement (and trust it comes in unscathed) or, if it is a simple paint touch-up, to go that route.

I realize in your mind there is an element of trust in their ability to paint it properly however, at the least, that would have given them the opportunity to place blame where blame was due and allow a claim against the shipper if that were the case. Now, by virture of another bad decision of their own doing, they are made to look like a bad guy again, and deservedly so.

It is very frustrating when things snowball from bad to worse due to circumstances beyond our own control. It is totally unacceptable when it is easily avoidable or the result of simple incompetence by others. Why for the life of me, assuming the dealer has a replacement loader on site, they haven't offered you a swap is totally beyond me. And frankly, so too is why you haven't taken that demand to the Kioti Customer Service Rep at this point. You are a far more patient man than I but, knock on wood, either way it sounds like you will be back in business real soon.

It's easy to coach from the sidelines, but KJ's and gamble's comments make perfect sense to me. Expecting a total loader re-design in even a few months is hardly realistic, IMHO. Sure, they could/should advise dealers that they are aware of and working with the loader manufacturer to address a stress crack issue but, like Highbeam is well aware, talk is cheap. Since this doesn't appear to an issue of immediate or catastrophic loader failure concern, it seems only feasible for Kioti to devise and plan an appropriate long-term solution before issuing any 'formal' TSB notice to dealers. In the interim, they better figure out how to provide an acceptable short-term customer service solution to owners.

TractorLegend · Jun 7, 2006

( 
Your anger is even seething over into your other posts, such as telling the guy with leaking hydraulic lines that he should "check the loader for cracks?" Your way off base in my opinion.
John )

If a guy with leaky lines is going to inspect his hoses and have the plate off, whats wrong with pointing out the thought of looking for cracks that may be evident at that time??
Am i missing something here??

TractorLegend · Jun 7, 2006

( 
Your anger is even seething over into your other posts, such as telling the guy with leaking hydraulic lines that he should "check the loader for cracks?" Your way off base in my opinion.
John )

If a guy with leaky lines is going to inspect his hoses and have the plate off, whats wrong with pointing out the thought of looking for cracks that may be evident at that time??
Am i missing something here??

Highbeam · Jun 7, 2006

"Why for the life of me, assuming the dealer has a replacement loader on site, they haven't offered you a swap is totally beyond me. And frankly, so too is why you haven't taken that demand to the Kioti Customer Service Rep at this point."

I have made that request and asked that question. I haven't gone so far as to demand it. Kioti could have nipped this thing right away had they gone this route.

Tractorlegend: I was halfway trying to ridicule my situation and also halfway serious that he should check or be advised to watch. I didn't think it was offensive either. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Highbeam · Jun 7, 2006

"Why for the life of me, assuming the dealer has a replacement loader on site, they haven't offered you a swap is totally beyond me. And frankly, so too is why you haven't taken that demand to the Kioti Customer Service Rep at this point."

I have made that request and asked that question. I haven't gone so far as to demand it. Kioti could have nipped this thing right away had they gone this route.

Tractorlegend: I was halfway trying to ridicule my situation and also halfway serious that he should check or be advised to watch. I didn't think it was offensive either. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

IslandTractor · Jun 7, 2006

This is obviously a problem and Kioti does know about it. 

I would hope and assume so. However, that is not what they told my dealer when he called earlier this week. They minimized the issue. What we are hollering about is that Kioti has not really acknowledged this issue. We hear from internet savvy dealers that Kioti is aware but I'd like to know that they have done more than mumble something about seeking a solution to a few high volume dealers. We don't need to know specifics but we do need to hear clearly that this problem is acknowledged, publically, and that the company is committed to making things right. This is the internet era. They have a website. There are so many simple ways that they could communicate a reassuring word or two that it is just unbelievable that they don't make some PR effort on their own behalf.

I am sure these postings (this thread is now officially the second most widely read thread in the Kioti subgroup history /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) are undoubtedly a nuisance and worry to some of our dealer friends here on TBN. We understand this internecine squabble is potentially harmful to business but that should be motivation to have those of you with more influence than a single owner put some pressure on Kioti to make a statement. After a few bottles of Tylenol were poisoned by some nutter, Johnson and Johnson not only made a statement within hours but actually pulled all the product nationwide almost immediately. That example (of rapid aggressive leadership in defence of their product) has been cited ever since as critical in protecting their market share. Kioti could learn a belated lesson or two by reviewing that episode. We don't need an exaggerated recall notice here to be satisfied, we need to know the general outline of how the company is going to respond. And we need to know that from the company, not from well intentioned but unofficial sources like dealers or KJ. They are not even telling the dealers the real story anyway. I presume that is the case as they specifically told my dealer there was no service bulletin being planned. That is either nuts or an intentional disinformation campaign. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I hope it is the former but even then I'm annoyed. How can they be so out of touch (in the internet era), to think that they can proceed at typical old "industry" pace (things in this industry don't happen overnight) when they are dealing with a PR problem of this type. Nobody on this forum has been hollering that we need the exact repair protocol and specifications tomorrow. What the yelling is about is the failure to be open or worse, to be trying to sweep an inconvient problem under the rug.

With regard to your advice on continuing to use the loaders. I appreciate your point. However, I also pulled out the manual to my loader and read the fine print on the warranty. First, it is for one year. Second, it specifically states that "Parts replaced or repaired under the terms of this Waranty are guaraanteed only until the original warranty expires". Third "Warranty applies only to the original purchaser" and fourth, "there are no warranties beyond those which expressly appear herein". Now I know that is a lot of boiler plate written by some lawyer but if Kioti intends to come up with a broader solution (what about those who check under the inspection plate for the first time at 13 or 24 months, what about Highbeam's new loader in a few months when the original one year is up?, What about those who were not the original purchaser?). Kioti does not need to wait for a final engineering solution and pilot testing to address some of those issues.

Kioti, are you listening yet? Ball is in your court. Run with it or lose.

IslandTractor · Jun 7, 2006

This is obviously a problem and Kioti does know about it. 

I would hope and assume so. However, that is not what they told my dealer when he called earlier this week. They minimized the issue. What we are hollering about is that Kioti has not really acknowledged this issue. We hear from internet savvy dealers that Kioti is aware but I'd like to know that they have done more than mumble something about seeking a solution to a few high volume dealers. We don't need to know specifics but we do need to hear clearly that this problem is acknowledged, publically, and that the company is committed to making things right. This is the internet era. They have a website. There are so many simple ways that they could communicate a reassuring word or two that it is just unbelievable that they don't make some PR effort on their own behalf.

I am sure these postings (this thread is now officially the second most widely read thread in the Kioti subgroup history /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) are undoubtedly a nuisance and worry to some of our dealer friends here on TBN. We understand this internecine squabble is potentially harmful to business but that should be motivation to have those of you with more influence than a single owner put some pressure on Kioti to make a statement. After a few bottles of Tylenol were poisoned by some nutter, Johnson and Johnson not only made a statement within hours but actually pulled all the product nationwide almost immediately. That example (of rapid aggressive leadership in defence of their product) has been cited ever since as critical in protecting their market share. Kioti could learn a belated lesson or two by reviewing that episode. We don't need an exaggerated recall notice here to be satisfied, we need to know the general outline of how the company is going to respond. And we need to know that from the company, not from well intentioned but unofficial sources like dealers or KJ. They are not even telling the dealers the real story anyway. I presume that is the case as they specifically told my dealer there was no service bulletin being planned. That is either nuts or an intentional disinformation campaign. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I hope it is the former but even then I'm annoyed. How can they be so out of touch (in the internet era), to think that they can proceed at typical old "industry" pace (things in this industry don't happen overnight) when they are dealing with a PR problem of this type. Nobody on this forum has been hollering that we need the exact repair protocol and specifications tomorrow. What the yelling is about is the failure to be open or worse, to be trying to sweep an inconvient problem under the rug.

With regard to your advice on continuing to use the loaders. I appreciate your point. However, I also pulled out the manual to my loader and read the fine print on the warranty. First, it is for one year. Second, it specifically states that "Parts replaced or repaired under the terms of this Waranty are guaraanteed only until the original warranty expires". Third "Warranty applies only to the original purchaser" and fourth, "there are no warranties beyond those which expressly appear herein". Now I know that is a lot of boiler plate written by some lawyer but if Kioti intends to come up with a broader solution (what about those who check under the inspection plate for the first time at 13 or 24 months, what about Highbeam's new loader in a few months when the original one year is up?, What about those who were not the original purchaser?). Kioti does not need to wait for a final engineering solution and pilot testing to address some of those issues.

Kioti, are you listening yet? Ball is in your court. Run with it or lose.