My letter to Kioti, loader rerepair, long

[Highbeam]

"Sure would be a hassle for any major work, since i don't own a trailer for my tractor."

Yes but you know a guy. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Highbeam]

"Sure would be a hassle for any major work, since i don't own a trailer for my tractor."

Yes but you know a guy. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Highbeam]

"I'm really surprised to see that more dealers don't have qualified welders."

Welding is a profession. I do not expect the tractor dealer to have a welder capable of high-end fabrication. Jack of all trades and master of none comes to mind. So for me, the ability of the dealer to weld is not important, the ability of the dealer to locate and use a capable professional welder is more important in my opinion.

 

[Highbeam]

"I'm really surprised to see that more dealers don't have qualified welders."

Welding is a profession. I do not expect the tractor dealer to have a welder capable of high-end fabrication. Jack of all trades and master of none comes to mind. So for me, the ability of the dealer to weld is not important, the ability of the dealer to locate and use a capable professional welder is more important in my opinion.

 

[IslandTractor]

Bob,

Your diagram key is unfortunately unclear on the critical "white box". There are several white boxes in the sketch. Do you mean the one with the dotted lines?

Regarding welding skills and a dealership. I know virtually all dealers have someone who can weld hooks on buckets etc. However this loader repair may involve specific types of welds or welding techniques that a journeyman welder could be expected to know but that a garage mechanic may or may not know. I don't think we are talking about welding a muffler or chain hook here. Mostly however, I don't like the idea of a dealer sending the cracked loader back to his service guys with a blanket "fix it" instruction without some factory authorized directive/service bulletin etc. We all saw what happened to Highbeam in such a situation. We don't need more examples of how well intentioned but inexperienced or dumb welders can screw up a repair.

I will reiterate for about the eighth time that I am surprised Kioti has not issued a formal heads up to it's dealers yet on this topic. I think that is really dumb. All they need to do is say "hey we have uncovered a potentially widespread problem with the FEL cross brace on FL120/130 loaders. We are working on a recommended repair and will provide a detailed service bulletin in the next 1, 2, 3 whatever weeks." That would allow dealers to 1) check loaders as they come in for routine service, 2) not jump to a hasty and poorly thought out repair, 3) be able to communicate more than "I dunno" to the customer. 4) give some general timeline for when a service bulletin will be issued. No statement from Kioti in this situation is just opening the door to further criticism. I'm sure Messick is delighted with Kioti's head in the sand PR campaign but some of the rest of us are getting pissed.

 

[IslandTractor]

Bob,

Your diagram key is unfortunately unclear on the critical "white box". There are several white boxes in the sketch. Do you mean the one with the dotted lines?

Regarding welding skills and a dealership. I know virtually all dealers have someone who can weld hooks on buckets etc. However this loader repair may involve specific types of welds or welding techniques that a journeyman welder could be expected to know but that a garage mechanic may or may not know. I don't think we are talking about welding a muffler or chain hook here. Mostly however, I don't like the idea of a dealer sending the cracked loader back to his service guys with a blanket "fix it" instruction without some factory authorized directive/service bulletin etc. We all saw what happened to Highbeam in such a situation. We don't need more examples of how well intentioned but inexperienced or dumb welders can screw up a repair.

I will reiterate for about the eighth time that I am surprised Kioti has not issued a formal heads up to it's dealers yet on this topic. I think that is really dumb. All they need to do is say "hey we have uncovered a potentially widespread problem with the FEL cross brace on FL120/130 loaders. We are working on a recommended repair and will provide a detailed service bulletin in the next 1, 2, 3 whatever weeks." That would allow dealers to 1) check loaders as they come in for routine service, 2) not jump to a hasty and poorly thought out repair, 3) be able to communicate more than "I dunno" to the customer. 4) give some general timeline for when a service bulletin will be issued. No statement from Kioti in this situation is just opening the door to further criticism. I'm sure Messick is delighted with Kioti's head in the sand PR campaign but some of the rest of us are getting pissed.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="blue">Bob,

Your diagram key is unfortunately unclear on the critical "white box". There are several white boxes in the sketch. Do you mean the one with the dotted lines?</font>
Perhaps if you compare what I did to what RedRocker did it would be more clear? I simply reused his drawing. He showed a plate added around the hydraulic access hole. I would suggested a much wider plate that runs from loader arm to loader arm, with a bend on each end to make a firm weld attachment point and to reduce flex. My suggestion would require 3 holes in the plate because there needs to be small holes for the hoses to enter/exit the cross brace, plus the larger access port hole.


<font color="blue">
Regarding welding skills and a dealership. I know virtually all dealers have someone who can weld hooks on buckets etc. However this loader repair may involve specific types of welds or welding techniques that a journeyman welder could be expected to know . . .</font>
Points taken, but I suspect that if a properly designed fix were engineered and sent out to all the dealers, then it would probalby take only the skills of an experienced mechanic/welder. There would be no fabrication at the dealer level. The dealer would take the part that he received and properly install it. He would not engineer anything. Perhaps I was unclear, I apologize for that.


<font color="blue">
I will reiterate for about the eighth time that I am surprised Kioti has not issued a formal heads up to it's dealers yet on this topic. </font>
It does strike me that they have created their own public relations problem.



TractorLegend wrote: <font color="green">Sure would be a hassle for any major work, since i don't own a trailer for my tractor. </font>
I would expect my dealer to pick it up and return it for any repair to a defective part. I would expect to have to pay for transportation for normal service. But there is no way that tractor owners should be expected or required to own/borrow trucks and trailers to get a repair for a defect. JMO

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="blue">Bob,

Your diagram key is unfortunately unclear on the critical "white box". There are several white boxes in the sketch. Do you mean the one with the dotted lines?</font>
Perhaps if you compare what I did to what RedRocker did it would be more clear? I simply reused his drawing. He showed a plate added around the hydraulic access hole. I would suggested a much wider plate that runs from loader arm to loader arm, with a bend on each end to make a firm weld attachment point and to reduce flex. My suggestion would require 3 holes in the plate because there needs to be small holes for the hoses to enter/exit the cross brace, plus the larger access port hole.


<font color="blue">
Regarding welding skills and a dealership. I know virtually all dealers have someone who can weld hooks on buckets etc. However this loader repair may involve specific types of welds or welding techniques that a journeyman welder could be expected to know . . .</font>
Points taken, but I suspect that if a properly designed fix were engineered and sent out to all the dealers, then it would probalby take only the skills of an experienced mechanic/welder. There would be no fabrication at the dealer level. The dealer would take the part that he received and properly install it. He would not engineer anything. Perhaps I was unclear, I apologize for that.


<font color="blue">
I will reiterate for about the eighth time that I am surprised Kioti has not issued a formal heads up to it's dealers yet on this topic. </font>
It does strike me that they have created their own public relations problem.



TractorLegend wrote: <font color="green">Sure would be a hassle for any major work, since i don't own a trailer for my tractor. </font>
I would expect my dealer to pick it up and return it for any repair to a defective part. I would expect to have to pay for transportation for normal service. But there is no way that tractor owners should be expected or required to own/borrow trucks and trailers to get a repair for a defect. JMO

 

[Dargo]

You know one thing that just struck me? I know that I have the machinery and ability to correctly repair this particular problem on a loader. Let's say that I do this for a dealer for a charge. Everyone is happy, and it looks at least as good as new. However, when out next the owner goes at it really hard with a huge rock, stump (whatever), and now breaks one side of the engine block or frame where the loader frame (the part that stays attached when the loader is off)? Would I be liable because I took out a 'designed' stress relief part and created undo forces where they were not anticipated?

A similar thing happened to me when a guy kept breaking a part on a snow plow on the front of his dump truck. I came up with a fix and installed it. The factory snow plow did not break where it had before, but he broke a big chunk out of the front of his frame. Since this plow was dealer installed, and it was still under warranty, he took it back. They voided his warranty because of the strengthening I did to the snow plow attachment bracket. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif He didn't blame me, but I wonder if Kioti wouldn't be better off replacing the loader frames to prevent such a senario?

 

[Dargo]

You know one thing that just struck me? I know that I have the machinery and ability to correctly repair this particular problem on a loader. Let's say that I do this for a dealer for a charge. Everyone is happy, and it looks at least as good as new. However, when out next the owner goes at it really hard with a huge rock, stump (whatever), and now breaks one side of the engine block or frame where the loader frame (the part that stays attached when the loader is off)? Would I be liable because I took out a 'designed' stress relief part and created undo forces where they were not anticipated?

A similar thing happened to me when a guy kept breaking a part on a snow plow on the front of his dump truck. I came up with a fix and installed it. The factory snow plow did not break where it had before, but he broke a big chunk out of the front of his frame. Since this plow was dealer installed, and it was still under warranty, he took it back. They voided his warranty because of the strengthening I did to the snow plow attachment bracket. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif He didn't blame me, but I wonder if Kioti wouldn't be better off replacing the loader frames to prevent such a senario?