Oil & Fuel My Used Oil Report

[john_bud]

My oil is still straw colored (like new) after 75 hours...but I've seen a lot of diesels looking black within a few hours of an oil change.
Nothing to worry about, IMHO.
BTW, you should have waited until after your manual call out for break in hours. Too late now, of course, but if you experience some oil usage, that may have been the cause.

I too am curious what you know that we don't know. Having rebuilt over 100 automobile / truck engines and changing the oil after the first 30 minutes of run time (camshaft break-in) then again after 100 miles (ring seating) being the typical standard process. Some of those engines have gone over 300k miles in harsh conditions and last I heard, were still going strong.

Also, the black in a diesel's oil is from the carbon soot that occurs as a natural part of the diesel combustion process. They are microscopic particles and being carbon black are quite soft. The diesel oil is specifically manufactured to keep particles in suspension so the filter can remove them. These are too small for the filter.

There are 2 reasons for the oil in Roy's tractor being still straw clear. (aside from bad eyes, Skyco!)

1) the engine is equipped with a high performance 0.5 to 1 micron bypass filtration system.

2) the tractor is not worked hard enough to produce any soot.


Those are the only ones I am familiar with. Anyone know of a third reason?

jb

 

[DiezNutz]

Don't worry about early oil changes when new, I've done that on every motor I've ever owned and consider it very inexpensive insurance, it will not hurt your ring break-in. Some debate the use of synthetics too early can harm ring break-in, I'm not so sure since many high end cars come from the factory with synthetic in them from the assembly line.

Offering that advice as a blanket statement is neither completely accurate or responsible. Much depends on whether or not you should change the oil earlier than the first scheduled oil change, including ring material and/or whether or not the factory oil is "break-in" oil with additional anti-wear additives in it (nowadays more than likely to be the case). There indeed have been cases where rings failed to seat properly and increased oil consumption resulted for many hours/miles before they eventually did, as well as robbing some "service life" from the engine due to increased component wear. People - swallow your pride, trust that the folks who designed and built your engine know better than you, and follow their instructions. It never fails to amaze me how many people think they're going to "get one over" on the manufacturer by short-changing the break-in cycle.

 

[DiezNutz]

There are 2 reasons for the oil in Roy's tractor being still straw clear. (aside from bad eyes, Skyco!)

1) the engine is equipped with a high performance 0.5 to 1 micron bypass filtration system.
2) the tractor is not worked hard enough to produce any soot.
Those are the only ones I am familiar with. Anyone know of a third reason?
jb

3) He mixed up his motor oil and SUDT bottles. I got a chuckle out of #2, btw.

 

[Skyco]

Offering that advice as a blanket statement is neither completely accurate or responsible. Much depends on whether or not you should change the oil earlier than the first scheduled oil change, including ring material and/or whether or not the factory oil is "break-in" oil with additional anti-wear additives in it (nowadays more than likely to be the case). There indeed have been cases where rings failed to seat properly and increased oil consumption resulted for many hours/miles before they eventually did, as well as robbing some "service life" from the engine due to increased component wear. People - swallow your pride, trust that the folks who designed and built your engine know better than you, and follow their instructions. It never fails to amaze me how many people think they're going to "get one over" on the manufacturer by short-changing the break-in cycle.

Nope. Manufacturers tout long service intervals as a means of enticing the consumer with "low cost". I'd love to hear of ANY manufacturer that uses a verified "break-in" oil. That is a thing of the past. Also please explain how a so-called break-in oil could contain additional "anti-wear additives". That is completely counter intuitive since break-in implies there IS wear to seat parts.
Sorry- but almost ALL engine rebuilders recommend a very early oil change, but then they are concerned with doing it right, not enticing the consumer with stretched out cheaper maintanance.

 

[TalonDancer]

There must be more to properly breaking in a tractor than picking the right hour for the engine oil change.

I'll be taking delivery of an L3240 w/ LA724 FEL, BH90 back hoe and BX66 box blade later this week. This will be my first tractor and first diesel. I fully expect to be still using it 20 yrs from now, if I break it in right and maintain it well I also expect to put 50 hours on it in under 4 weeks.* So I'd appreciate advice on the best way to break in the full tractor.

Here is my current "break in plan"...
I've organized my tractor projects list to allow me to begin with lighter/slower tasks and work up to heavier/faster tasks, using all of the moving parts as evenly as possible -- engine, transmission, FEL, back- hoe and 3 point hydraulics. For example, I plan to smooth and crown the flatter (8% grade) sections of the drive way using shallow downhill drags with the box blade and work up to the steeper (30% grade) section dragging uphill full bore by the end of the 50 hours. I'll rotate between box blade, FEL and back hoe tasks at each "load stage". FWIW this task rotation won't be much trouble since I have lots of projects and want to learn the tractor's capabilities as I go anyway.

Unless someone can produce hard evidence that the oil/filter Kubota installs at the factory is different from the stuff I can buy at the dealer...
I'll follow my instincts/experience and change the engine oil and filter somewhere between 10-20 hours (i.e. before I start putting a heavy load on the tractor's engine).

Thanks In Advance - Talon Dancer

* For reference: Our current vehicles avg. well over 20 yrs (68, 77, 88, and 01). I have done all the maintenance and repairs, except the 01 while it was under warranty. I put 30 hours on a rented L39 in 10 days. And it rained EVERY day, including a 3.5 inch downpour while I was spreading road base that kept me grounded for 3 days while the last 20 yds dried out enough to spread.

 

[DieselPower]

Your UOA looks like a normal engine break in report. High counts on the wear metal and silicon are not uncomon. The reason BlackStone suggested sampling early at 75 hours next time is to keep track of the wear metals and to make sure that they return to normal limits. If they do not start to fall then there is a possiblity that something is not right. After your 2nd or 3rd oil change the wear metal counts should start to stabalize and you can start using the reports as a trend analysis.

There is nothing wrong with changing your "break in" oil sooner than called for. The majority of break in happens within the first couple minutes of operation. The only thing that tends to take a little longer to break in is the rings and cylinder walls. Operate the engine at moderate and steady RPM's for the first few hours with light to medium load and they will seat in just fine.

As for the original fill being a actual "break in" oil it is highly unlikely. Very few engine manufacturers use break in oil anymore. In fact I can't actually think of any. As far as I know Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Wackashaw, International to name a few use a standard off the shelf oil as the factory fill.

 

[john_bud]

TalonDancer,

Your breakin plan sounds well reasoned and should work well. I did similar to your plan, but dumped the oil out of the crank case as soon as I backed the tractor off of the trailer. I like to get all of the casting flash, sand, grit, and other misc assembly "stuff" out as fast as possible. Then I did a change after 10 hours then a full service at 50 changing all fluids, filters and cleaning the HST screen.

The worst thing you can do for a new diesel is to baby it for the first 10hours. The rings need to seat and combustion pressure is what drives them to seat. I would give a medium to heavy load from the start, but a light duty cycle. Grading up hill, then down hill would do that. If you baby the engine, the surface on the cylinder walls may be rubbed off and a "glazed" condition results keeping the rings from seating. The old timers used to give a puff of Comet or Ajax into the intake after the filter to get glazed cylinders to seat. (that isn't a recommendation!!!!)

Does anyone know if Kubota does a hot run on tractor engines at the factory? This could all be a mute point if the rings are already seated !

jb

 

[DiezNutz]

I'd love to hear of ANY manufacturer that uses a verified "break-in" oil. That is a thing of the past. Also please explain how a so-called break-in oil could contain additional "anti-wear additives". That is completely counter intuitive since break-in implies there IS wear to seat parts.

I'd love to hear that you work for Kubota and know for a fact that they don't? See, I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt whether Kubota does or doesn't, nor do I claim to, nor do I even care since (a) I followed their advice, and (b) 50 hrs didn't take long at all to rack up. But I certainly don't go around telling people to thumb their nose at whatever the manufacturer suggests. No, break-in oil isn't a thing of the past... Honda/Acura, VW/Audi, and reportedly Benz use a special break-in oil or additives (VW in their TDI diesels as well), to name a few, and it's even right in Honda owner's manual. Couldn't tell you exactly what it is, but my guess is it's at least non-detergent. Additives don't have to eliminate ALL wear...MoS2 for instance helps cut down on a good bit of bearing and cam/lifter wear, while still allowing the rings to seat (which there's a good chance they're moly-faced at least anyway) and even cutting down on some of the ring shear.
Now, if you have some facts to support the position that they don't use anything special, I'm all ears. Of course Honda and Kubota have very little in common except that they happen to occupy the same tiny island and Japanese engineering & manufacturing have a great deal of "cultural conformity".

 

[DiezNutz]

There is nothing wrong with changing your "break in" oil sooner than called for. The majority of break in happens within the first couple minutes of operation. The only thing that tends to take a little longer to break in is the rings and cylinder walls. Operate the engine at moderate and steady RPM's for the first few hours with light to medium load and they will seat in just fine.

As for the original fill being a actual "break in" oil it is highly unlikely. Very few engine manufacturers use break in oil anymore. In fact I can't actually think of any. As far as I know Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Wackashaw, International to name a few use a standard off the shelf oil as the factory fill.

DieselPower, if I may quote you from 3/22/07 "Best Break In for Diesel", in response to Redbug's question about break-in oil:

Actually it has a massive amount of ZDDP (zinc) in it. During break in there is even more need for EP anti-wear additives. Break in oils usually have anywhere from 2 to 5+ times the additive package compared to regular oil.

My procedure is to do the first change at 5 hours. This is when the majority of the initial break in occurs and changing it removes all the metal contamination. I then change the oil and refill with a regular dino oil and add 2 bottles of EOS. EOS can be purchased at any local GM/Chevrolet dealership and is a engine assembly oil that is mainly just a base oil carrier with a very large ZDDP additive package, basically I am making my own break in oil. I then run this oil change to the 50 hour mark and from then on go with my regular extended drain intervals with UOA's.

Naturally I have to ask, since I find it hard to believe that so much has changed across the manufacturing landscape in the past 5 months, why the apparent 180?

Hey guys, speaking of non-existent break-in oils, here's something a little more relevant: http://jdparts.deere.com/partsmkt/do...nd_Filters.htm
Also look up Deere part # TY22041 and explain to me as I seem to be very confused. It is supposable that Kubota has their own, and it just isn't retailed. Do we know for sure?

As for all of the alleged metal shavings and misc. crap that is supposedly floating around in the new oil... advanced manufacturing standards & practices notwithstanding... years and years ago (like, before multigrade and detergent oils), oil filters were optional accessories, not the norm. How fortunate for us in these modern times that they're standard equipment on just about everything except a pushmower and small 2-cycle engines; there's even special small-micron "break-in" filters. Point is, if it's tiny enough to get by the _ahem_ filter, is it really a pull-the-drain-plugs-or-death situation?

P.S.- when I dumped my pan (at 51.2 hours), I ran the oil across a filter element and there was virtually nothing in it.

 

[Double 00 Soul]

Skyco, john bud, DieselPower, I agree with your comments on this subject. I bought my B3030 in the summer of 06. The oil that came in the tractor dripped off the dipstick so fast it looked like one of my dogs had lifted his leg in the oil pan. With temps. in the 90s and sometimes 100 that summer, I put in Shell Rotella 15W-40 at 12 hours. In the fall, at 40 hours, I put in synthetic 10W-30 because of our somewhat harsh Minnesota winters. When it started to warm up this spring I put the 15W-40 in again at 55 hours. I have not yet put on enough hours between spring and fall so that I'd get up to the hours specified in the owner's manual for oil changes, therefore I change the oil according to the temp. range expected. The clock is now up to 90 hours and the oil does not move off the full mark between oil changes so no one can convince me that doing the first oil change, or any subsequent oil changes, before the hours specified in the manual does any harm to the engine. I did the first oil change very early not just because of the temps. but because I wanted to get rid of any metal, casting mtl., etc. and the engine doesn't seem to have minded a bit, quite the contrary, because it uses no oil between changes.

My tractor, like all my engines, will never go as far as the owner's manual says it can between oil changes. My dealer made a comment when I bought the tractor, I told him 50 hours seemed like a heck of a long time to wait to do the first oil change. He just smiled and told me that most of his other customers didn't wait that long either on a new tractor.