National I.D. Card

Anonymous Poster · Sep 25, 2001

I only hope for your sake that it isn't you or your family members that are killed or injured before you get the point. 

I get the point. Many friends and relatives will be on the front lines if we go to war. But how does further eroding OUR rights, freedom or privledges equate to preventing other attacks?

FREEDOM AND LIBERTY ARE MORE THAN THE ABSENCE OF FEAR AND WAR!

A WWI vet told me that when he returned from France after fighting for freedom, he was amazed at how much freedom he had already lost here at home.

As to illusions, it sounds like you are the one living in an illusion if you think some ID card, supercomputers and lots of tax dollars are going to ensure your protection. Remember RPM, as long as you have your ID card, the terrorists can do you no harm. How's that for an illusion.

ejb · Sep 25, 2001

>>There are no black & white, 100% solutions. I agree with you.

On this we can agree.

But I would rather do nothing, than pay for and be inconvienced by an expensive, privacy reducing system that will never work properly and will never prevent even a single terrorist attack. The Federal goverment can't even run the IRS properly, how do you expect them to track the day to day movements of 280Million people? The answer is they can't, so why waste the money and try. You would be hard pressed to name one massively complex large scale information technology project that the government has been able to complete successfully (i.e. on budget, on schedule and with all of the promised benefits). There are none. (Most private corporations can't do it either). How many tens of billions of dollars has the IRS spent "modernizing" its computers only to have one massive and expensive failure after another. Even using high priced external consultants and contractors from the private sector.

The governement that governs least, governs best.

Papers please....

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

Grumpy,

I know you have your hand on your heart and are filled with good intentions.

But you don't get the point. You are on the front-line right now. We all are. We are living in a war zone. How do you identify friend or foe?

To use a battlefield analogy, the terrorists are wearing the American uniform right now - they have forged IDs. How do you tell who they are? You make it harder for them to get that uniform ... a good biometric ID system would go a long way to doing that.

And you know what? If we find that one of the bad guys is wearing the uniform of a good guy - with an ID system we'll be able to locate them fast.

It's not the final answer, but it makes it harder for the terrorists. Biometric ID systems or cards will become part of the arms race in the war against terrorism.

Patrick

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

ejb,

I also agree with you that the feds don't have what it takes on large computer deployments etc.

However, this is part of the arms race against terrorism. First line of action is to make it harder for the terrorist to assume a fake identity and roam unimpeded around the country.

By the way, look at Afghanistan for an example of a country with minimal government ...

Patrick

ejb · Sep 25, 2001

>>By the way, look at Afghanistan for an example of a country with minimal government ...

Afghanistan is not a minimal intrusive government, in fact they are just the opposite. They are run more or less like a dictatorship and have ultimate authority over everybody in the country without any "rights" for the people. That is not how I would describe a "minimal" governement.

A minimal governemt is one that gives as much freedom and rights to the individual. Surely you can't be serious that that describes Afghanistan?

Anonymous Poster · Sep 25, 2001

Despite the billions of dollars spent on xray machines, metal detectors, bomb sniffing dogs and all the other high technology the planes were taken over by men with knives who to the best of our knowledge, were here legally and were not wanted for crimes elsewhere. No ID card would have stopped this. Terrorist groups will go to great lengths to find willing participants who have clean records and can obtain one of these ID card without suspection. Lets not over look the possibility of moles within our government willing to provide cards for money. Look at the number of traitors working for the Soviets that have been uncovered in recent years. These kind of people love their money more than their country or countrymen.

We are not in a war zone or on the front lines any more than we were following OKC. Paranoia is an after effect of all such incidents, not that we shouldn't be vigilant, but we shouldn't go off half cocked surrendering our freedoms for the false sense of security.

The battle cry of the American Revolution was "live free or die". I guess I'd rather die in my freedom than live under a government that believes that I pose a security risk based on my buying habits and the church I choose to attend.

PitbullMidwest · Sep 25, 2001

By the way, look at Afghanistan for an example of a country with minimal government 

There is a difference between minimal government and minimal government intrusion in to its citizen's lives. Monitoring the everyday lives of Americans seems to be a step toward what the Taliban is doing, not preventing it.

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

Grumpy,

Interesting points.

The first about finances is very valid - for perhaps a different reason than you expect. Why was all the equipment useless? Because we as the public are unwilling to pay for higher airfares that would in turn allow better security.

The average turnover of security staff at an airport is well over 100%. They make roughly the same as the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds. As a comparison - when was the last time you heard of a hijacking on El-Al - the Israeli airline? Don't you think they are targeted? In the rest of the world, these people are well qualified, highly trained and paid a respectable wage. They go through weeks of training initially plus constant refreshers. Our security staff in US airports are miserably trained by comparison and much less qualified initially. In fact, I would argue we need to totally change the hiring profile to match that of the people that know how to do this - people like the folks at El-Al.

By the way, we're not going to be able to change this any time soon. When was the last time that you managed to convert an unskilled, unqualified person into a professional overnight ... or even inside a couple of months. Security essentially stays the same at US airports until we fix this - fancy machines or not.

So my point on that is that it's about finances. We are now probably willing to pay more for safety on the airlines. Are we willing to pay more in taxes for the US government to do a comparable job internationally and with immigration policy? One way to make their job easier and cheaper would be with a national ID system.

As for the motto "Live Free and Die" I would be inclined to agree. However I do want a fighting chance to live free. I'm willing to live a little less free if it means I don't have to worry about a sneak nerve-gas attack next time I'm in Manhattan.

Patrick

hightechredneck · Sep 25, 2001

"I'm willing to live a little less free if it means I don't have to worry about a sneak nerve-gas attack next time I'm in Manhattan."

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

Pitbull Midwest,

I don't see a national ID system as intrusive. I see it as a way to improve national security somewhat. Any privacy you have is illusory anyway.

As an example ... I could reveal your name and address etc. right now. My guess is that you live in Iowa, your area code is 319 and your local exchange is 754. I may be slightly off but it wouldn't take long to confirm. I can do that without even being the admin of this site.

It's just too easy.

Patrick