Need heat pump help again

[bczoom]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Rheem/Rudd/WeatherKing
Carrier/Bryant/Payne
Lennox/Armstrong/AirEase/Ducane/Whirlpool
Amana/Goodman/Janitrol
Miler/Nordyne/Maytag
Tempstar/Heil/ICP owned by Carrier
Trane/American Standard
York/Coleman)</font>

Follow-up question on this list.

Although a company makes several brands, is it like the auto industry where there's different quality or grades? E.g. Lincoln, Mercury & Ford.

If so, in the Rheem/Rudd/WeatherKing line, where does the WeatherKing fall?

Thanks
Brian

 

[Freds]

Sigarms would know better than me, but it seems like the big difference is availability of parts.
If you go with, say a HVAC contractor that buys his equipment at a HVAC supply house, the supply house is more likely to have the parts in stock. Not everyone can afford to inventory $100 circuit boards for all the models they install. If you go with a dealer brand, say Lennox, it's up to the individual contractor to inventory parts and that doesn't always happen, so the part may need to be ordered in. There are SOME universal parts out there, but not many anymore.
Also, some units have moer "adjustments" to them. Things like blower speeds, or even swapping a blower with higher CFM into a smaller unit, something you might do if your house was small dimension wise, but two or three stories high and you had to move some air into typically harder to heat and cool areas.
At least this is what I remember and have found out with my own furnaces.

 

[skent]

Sounds like what we went thru two years ago, heat pump was low on freon, service man searched and sniffed everywhere. Couldn't find the leak. He kept going back to that A coil. Ended up recharging it and left. Eight weeks later it was low again. I couldn't understand how a system that operated for 10 years w/o needing a charge could lose 2# of freon in two months. Ended up being the accumulator (cylinder in suction line between reversing valve and compressor). After 10 years the shell of the accumulator had become porus - VERY slow leak from all over (less than 1/2 ounce per day). Couldn't be detected as with a normal leak. Replaced it and it's been great since.

 

[Sigarms]

Most cases, you do not need strip heat when running a "dual fuel" syatem.

You'll find that a heatpump with a gas furnace for "back up" heat is overall the "best" way to go. You won't use any propane for the "mild days".

If you have a leak, and can't find it, CLiplight manufac. in Canada makes "super seal HVACR", a neat little product that will repair "hard to find pinhole leaks" in your system (and no, it won't hurt your compressor). If you go this route, make sure you get it by the exact name as I listed. They have different "cans" for different sizes of systems, and also for 3 phase equipment (dollar says you have a single phase

As far as equipment lines, this is only an opinion (sp). Your right, alot of it s like cars. Weatherking is marketed for new construction, less "bells and whistles" so to speak (and accordingly, usually less in price than Rheem/Rudd). Air Flow is Lennox's line, that equipment is made by Ducane, out of S.C. Ducane makes thier own line as well. To have some info that even the HVAC contractors may not even know, Ducane will be "co-working" with Armstrong Air (also out of S.C, but different town) to manufacture yet another unit due out next year (Amrstrong also make whirlpool). Carrier has Payne (builders grade). Sears "Kenmore" line is uaually either heil or carrier (if it's tempstar, they "private lable" the line with the sears name).

Also note that with different lines, there are different "bells and whistles" the the dealer can get. This is called "marketing funds", and in most cases, the price of the equipment can determine how many "bells and whistles" the dealer actually gets /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

To me, I would put a weatherking in my house. There is not "that much difference" between the Rheem/Ruud line and Weatherking (only my opinion)

Weathking is just another "marketing opportunity" for Rheem/Ruud to gather more market share from thier compitition (say Lennox's Airflow or Carrier's Payne line).

Keep in mind from the example above, I could list almost every "make" who has a "sub line", and who's in "co-horts" with each other. The list is WAY TO LONG, take my word for it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Honeywell, white rodgers, emerson, a o smith (motors) sporlan, alco, are your most "common" names of parts manufacturers for the HVAC equipment line.

But... if it is a high end" piece of equipment" (such as Carrier), the parts are "private labled", meaning that you HAVE to go back to the manufacturer (in some sort of way) to buy the part. This is where you can really "get bent over" so to speak ("technical" for those parts are OEM, Original Equipment Manufacturer). This is where you may be at the mercy of a "factory dealer" so to speak.

I don't want to "knock" any equipment out there, but in my defense, for my company, I've sold/work with at least 2 very high end lines, and some lines that people may not of even of heard of. We still work with these companies (we were not "dropped", just in different locations in the U.S, we have certain "restrictions" on what we can sell.

There is no "piece of crap" equipment out there (although Haier form overseas just opened up a plant in Columbia, S.C and will be hitting the U.S market hard in the near future, and I don't know about them yet /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). You will however, pay more for one name than another in some cases.

Keep in mind, the contractor has to make money as well. It can all depend on what he's going to charge you for the equipment and labor/install. Keep in mind, the installation is the MOST important part of the equation in all of this.

 

[kenmac]

Not to try to take away from anything that anyone has said, but my opinion is that trane/ american standard has the best compressor .They are the only only ac co that I know of that make their own.I think all the ac companies have had problems with their a coils leaking after a few years.I didn't go with a heat pump in my house , but I do have the 90+ gas faf. I have goodman/ janitrol units .as was said these are lowest priced units on the market .(at least in my area)

 

[Sigarms]

Kenmac

I would wage a good amount of money that American Standard/Trane (American Standard owns Trane, and is marketed as thier "upper tier line") failure rate on compressors is no better/worse than anyone elses.

I've handled the company that you mentioned (for about 2 years in another part of the country), and can honestly say that I have not seen a difference in Wrty rates compared to other lines (in compressors).

What I have seen however is the difference on how HVAC dealers handle wrty work. Remember, just because you get a 10 year or lifetime compressor wrty, that usually never covers labor, and changing out a compressor can get VERY expensive, even if it's under wrty.

 

[PBinWA]

Hi Sigarms,

Thanks for all your great insights. This thread is a "keeper".

So which manufactures treat their contractors/dealers the best?

How does joe homeonwer (me) determine who is going to do a good job installing a unit. Is there any sort of industry certification or training that is worth looking for?

Thanks again for you great advice.

 

[Sigarms]

PBinWA

Thanks /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

NATE is the the "official" certification to some extent in our industry. You also have ACCA and some other "national organizations" in the HVAC industry.

Problem is to "joe homeowner", it can all be a roll of the dice.

In the state where I currently live, EVERY HVAC contractor is licensed by the state, and EVERY TIME a job is done, a permit is required to be pulled, and the job inspected by the state to make sure the job done meets state code (and I can tell you for a fact, that on MANY jobs, permits are not pulled and no inspections done).

When I first moved down here, I thought "holy cow", these guys really know what they're doing down here. First day in the office, and I get a call from a dealer who handles our equipment, and honestly, he asked me such a bonehead question, that he should of knew the answer, that I was floored!

My point is that I know of guys that are not licensed (sp?) by the state who I would reccomend to do work (both install and service) and would trust to do work on my own house. By the same token, I know of some "big companies" (over 200 employees) who have guys who are certified who I wouldn't have them PAY ME for them to do the work. GO figure.

One way though is when you have a guy come out to give you a quote on changing out a system is what type of questions he asks you.

In the "old days", "bigger is better" was the attititude. Many systems were "oversized" for the load requirements of the house. Today, that is not the case.

If you have a guy who comes out, sees you have a 100,000btu furnace, and gives you a price to replace just the furnace (same size), you may want to get another quote.

What he should do is do a load on the house (at no charge), determine you actually have the "right size" furnace in place, and if not, let you know. Also realize that if the size of the furnace changes, the ductwork size probably will need to be changed as well.

He should also ask some questions like:
1. is the house heating and cooling properly in all areas?
2. do you have any major temperature swings in the house
3. do you or any of you family have allergies?
4. are you familar with zoning?
5. what concerns or problems have you had in the past with your system, and what would you like your system to do.

Many more questions, but you get the point.

Problem is, options and changing systems cost money, and the homeowner is usually looking for the "cheepest way out" to replace the sytem.

By the same token, the homeowner SHOULD get at least 3 quotes, and MAKE SURE YOUR COMPARING APPLES TO APPLES.

By this, I mean I have contractors lose bids, and I ask them why. Usually they tell me they don't know. Well, you'll never know unless you ask. What I've found in numerous cases is that a guy will lose a job becasue he is higher, but he's higher because he's doing more work than the other guy, he just didn't explain to the homwowner WHY he was charging more (even if the system meets the house load, many times ductwork is oversized or undersized, and chaning the ductwork cosst more than just changing the furnace).

Also, I know people buy from the "weekend worriers"(sp). This is the guy who works for a large company who does side work. Most times he does "good work", but people buy from him because he's cheap (he does not have to carry insurance, pay labor and have all that nice "overhead" to pay for). Problem is if there is an "issue" down the road. Because this guy has a full time job, many times he can't come out when you need the service work done.

I do know of dealers who refuse to do warranty work if they didn't install the system. Reason being is they know who they lost the job to, and then the homeowner who went with the lower price can't get the guy who installed the system out to fix it.

Remember this: there are numerous options that you the homeowner have in deciding what you want with you HVAC system. It is up to the dealer to explain to you what those options are, what the benifits are, and let you know what it will cost you.

Some examples

Zoning the house, so you can keep different sections of the house cool or warm (say keeping the upstairs cool at night and not cooling the downstairs when no one is there, saves money)

Whole house dehumidifier you can mount in your ductwork that does up to 90 pints of water a day (takes moisture out of the entire house

Communicating t-stats, wireless t-stats, controlling you hvac system via the phoneline or by computer (not as much as you would think as well).

Different type of air cleaners for the house. Heck, indoor air quality is becoming one the bigggest issues now in the building industry.

High velocity systems where you main ductowrk is 7" round, and you supply is 2" round (great for areas where conventional ductwork wont work

There are others, but I'm at work /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif hopefully you get the idea /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Heck, I know of guys who can go out and sell jobs, and they don't even tell the homeowner what type of equipment they are putting in.

I had one contractor who put it the best explaining it to me, "I sell the equipment, the equipment doesn't sell me".

Remember, make sure you compare the quotes and exactly what work is being done, and why.

In most cases you do get what you pay for (and I said MOST cases /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

 

[kenmac]

I don't know what the failure rate is compaired to brand x.I only see more brand x failures more than american standard/ trane, but there are probably more brand x compressors out there than amer. standard/trane.I don't know about where you live,but some people have the idea that trane is the best , and if you won't or can't sell them one you will lose the sale. I install & service ac units, remember what I have? Good old goodman. 17 years now no troubles

 

[Sigarms]

Kenmac

Did some work for my company around the Gulf Shore area, and your right about Trane, but it seemed as Rheem had a "good following" as well.

Funny, different areas, different "makes" "rule" the area.

Here in N.C, York is almost unheard of (at least in my market), but up "north", they have more market share.

Same can be said for Lennox and Carrier.

Your also right about customers "perceptions" on the manufacturer.

To help my dealers (with the equipment I handle) I always have them ask the homeowner "why" do you want that brand. If the homeowner is "reasonable" he/she should listen to you.

As you mentioned, it's the customers "idea" that Trane is the best. The question is why is it an "idea" and seperating "fact from fiction". The most common response from homeowners I hear is "well, my neighbor has one".

There is only one organiztion that I know of that would have the most detailed information about failure rates per each manufacturer, and needless to say, they have that information in confidence, and won't give it out.

I could be wrong, but I believe the national average was a 3% failure rate for most manufacturers a couple of years ago.

I sell my product by standing behind the line. I tell my customers (the contractor) that it's not the equipment, BUT the people behind the equipment. If you need a copmpressor at 2 pm on a Sunday and it's 95 degrees out, you give me a call, and you'll have that compressor THAT DAY(or if I don't have the compressor in stock, you'll have a new condensing unit at the compressor price). And I might add, this has happened.

I may lose some money by giving "exceptional" service (exceptional by my definition), but I more than make up for it in the overall business that I gain by giving this service to the contractor.

Everyone wants the business, the question is how you take care of the customer after the sale (sorry for the "rant", time to get off my "high horse").

Keep in mind, you better be charging "sunday" rates /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Give the customer service, and they will come /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif (most of the time

Keep in mind though, like tractors, any HVAC equipment line does have a "market price" depending on what area of the country you live in.