Need Surveying Advice

[BruceR]

TN should be able to find his corners with a tape measure. A tape measure can be used for just distances or it can also be used to develop angles too.

The recommendations are to help him find the corners of his property that has already been surveyed.... recon as noted by BruceR. However recon can lead to the discovery of the original monuments and then TN would have a good basis for knowing where his property lines are.

Even if he finds the original monuments they may not represent the true lines. If there is a conflict with a neighboring piece of property the neighbor's property may or may not take precedence.


Zeuspaul

The tape measure is OK for small lots but I need to see someone carry it out for a couple thousand feet before I will believe it can be done. If trying to tape or "chain" the distances you will need a 100' steel surveyors tape ( pick it up used on ebay ) and be sure to apply the proper tension (to compensate for sag) and to keep it level, plumbing it if going up or down hill.

It is true that Junior/Senior rights can come into play here. The deed to this tract and all the adjoining tracts probably need to be run back to the soverign. All the more reason to try and find someone with a history in your area who may have already done all of that, or go down to the courthouse and start pulling deeds. Some of the adjoiners deeds may show witness trees near your corners which you can then strap distances from to locate your corners.

This is an old property description which was probably run out with a compass and chain. The 1/2 degrees and 1/2 rods may well be the result of someone having already done their best to balance the traverse. The distances called for may well be short by a couple of hundred feet, that is usually the case in my area as the person purchasing the land was often pressed into service as tail chainman to try and keep the surveying cost down. It didn't take them long to figure out that if the took an extra step before they hollered "CHAIN" that they would wind up with more land than they were paying for. Also when they original tracts were carved from the soverign the surveyors would make sure there was some extra, as land was cheap and they didn't want to cheat the purchaser out of any by mistake.

Boundary re-construction is my passion, much more money in construction surveying or city surveying but it's parcels such as these that keep me interested.

On another note, the road may well have moved since this description was written since as it was probably more of a cart trail at the time. The parcel lines may also have old cart trails along them as well as it was often the custom to use the line the surveyors cleared as a road between two large tracts. Look for a depression or a hump with a ditch on either side apprx. 6-12 foot wide, don't be mislead by the timber, there may well be trees 24" or greater dia. growing there at this point. Look for blazed trees, these would have a blaze facing the line if they were within 4 foot of either side of it or a blaze on line if the tree was on the line. Trees with an "X" will indicate a corner. Trees with an "X" and hacks above and below or base blazed trees will indicate that it is a Witness tree for the corner. Get down and squint and try to see a difference in the timber, one tract or the other was probably logged in the past and you may well be able to discern a difference. If sassafrass gows in your area look for stands of sassafrass trees. These typically grow in open areas along the edges of fields. If the field lays fallow and timber grows, the sassafrass will remain. Look for a line of trees larger in dia. than the rest, that would indicate the location of the line, there may well be two lines 6-12 feet apart, this would also indicate an old road between two tracts.

If you try to run this out with a compass be sure you are familiar with declination and how to apply it to your compass readings. Don't rely on what a USC&GS based topo tells you the declination is, they are probably twenty years old and your declination will have changed considerably since then. I do solar observations to determined "True Bearing" and adjust my declination to match.

Take this as an oportunity to go and meet the neighbors, maybe they have knowledge of the location of the lines.

In this case, mathematics and sat photos will get you started in the right direction but you have to get down in the dirt and gather the true evidence of the line. If the trees called for at the corners are gone, you should still be able to locate the stump holes. I'm not sure what a wild Cherry root tastes like, but pine tastes like turpentine.

Bruce

 

[shaley]

I have two surveying questions? How prevelent are those length units found in metes and bounds like poles, chains etc. do I need to add that to my software? 2. What method would you use to balance HobbyFarmer's plat, Compass rule or Transit rule?

 

[bobkrack]

If you try to run this out with a compass be sure you are familiar with declination and how to apply it to your compass readings. Don't rely on what a USC&GS based topo tells you the declination is, they are probably twenty years old and your declination will have changed considerably since then. I do solar observations to determined "True Bearing" and adjust my declination to match.
Bruce

Bruce,
I have a small 2.52 acre, heavily wooded, square parcel with the northwest and southeast corners marked by pipe stakes. Property lines run within 1/2 degree of north/south - east/west. I certainly do not trust a magnetic compass here an a very mineralized area of northern kalifornia.

Can I use "solar noon" to help me find the two other corners? The northeast corner is probably marked by a pipe stake that I have not been able to find and the southwest corner is most likely within the surface area of a "private" gravel road.

The property lines are around 480 feet long each direction.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[zeuspaul]

Bob

There are many *norths*. astronomic, grid, and magnetic which changes over time. Which one do you have??

You can get a pretty good fix on astronomic north by sighting the north star at the tail end of the little dipper.

The best thing to do is use the relationship between the two found monuments to establish direction to the remaining two. On a wooded lot it may be difficult as you probably do not have a direct line of sight between the two found monuments.

Have you tried a metal detector?

Zeuspaul

 

[rox]

Bruce, Many thanks for a truly intersting post. You educated many people ehre i am positive. i can see how your job is like puzzle solving every day, it was facinating to read your advice.

 

[TNhobbyfarmer]

Bruce.....I totally concur with Rox that your post was quite informative. I can tell you have a passion for what you do and I'm sure as a consequence you as very good at it.

Wouldn't it be fun for you, Shaley, Zeuspaul, Homebrew (I hope I'm not leaving anybody out) and me to convene at my place and work this whole deal out. I would certainly supply the Budweiser (or Diet Coke if that's you preference). We'd have those lines marked in no time flat.

Anyway thanks for ALL the good advice. Let me say again, it never ceases to amaze me the depth of knowledge that exists here in TBN.

 

[BruceR]

Thanks Guys,

Shaley:
These units are not found much these days except in very old property descriptions. Today a 100' steel surveyors tape is commonly refered to as a chain, but when called for in a property description it means Gunter's Chain, which is 66 feet. Everything else pretty much descends from that. An acre is 10 square Chains, a rod or perch is 16.5 feet which is 1/4 Chain. If you get into varas it is a whole 'nother story. There are about 30 definitions for vara. Compass rule was traditionaly used on old traverses. Be sure and balance the angles before applying Compass rule. (N-3)180, with "N" being the number of sides to your figure.

Bob: Like Zeuspaul said, there are many definitions for North. You would need to know which was used on your property description. The bearings shown on your deed are mainly used to define the angular relationship between two legs of a figure. Since you have the NW and SE corners located, your best bet is to apply your declination ( whithin a degree should work in your case ) to compass and try to "strap" in your other two corners. Measure the distance with a 100' chain from NWC toward NEC and mark the spot. Do the same thing from SEC toward NEC. You may have to repeat a couple times to get the two points half-way close. Then take a metal locator and start sweeping the area.

TNhobbyfarmer: I would be more than happy to give it a shot on my next vacation. Only problem is, I just took my first vacation in over five years, and I would need to get over to LA and help tallyho8 mark one of his lines first.

Bruce

 

[shaley]

TNhobbyfarmer, Thanks for the invite, may be able to visit someday. I really like that country out that way. I think this year is "get the cabin finished year" though. Keep posting what you find out and we can add info to the plat map as we go. I posted the maps so when (if) you hire a surveyor you will know exactly what you need done and wont waste your money. I've been writing software to draw plats and wanted too see how it did with large metes and bounds. Based on what Bruce said I wont add pole units, just keep things in feet. I need to add the balancing routines.

Bruce, I'm sure you mean (N-2)*180. I've always let my data collector do the adjustments and then just download the COGO. But I need to add that to the my software.

 

[shaley]

Here is a screen shot of the software I'm working on. I'd like to add GPS overlays to it.
I hear that by late next year consumer GPS units will be accurate within +-1ft. Currently I think it is -+10ft. So you might be able to get a coordinate on a known corner and we can overlay it on the plat.

 

[dmccarty]

... Look for blazed trees, these would have a blaze facing the line if they were within 4 foot of either side of it or a blaze on line if the tree was on the line. Trees with an "X" will indicate a corner. Trees with an "X" and hacks above and below or base blazed trees will indicate that it is a Witness tree for the corner...

In my area of NC the boundries are marked with two slashes on the tree nearest the property line. Corners are three slashes AND should have three trees marked around the corner. This way you should be able to figure out where the corner is located. SHOULD.

If the land has been recently surveyed you might still find flagging in the trees. I have seen the tree grow around flagging that was years old.

Later,
Dan