The oil companies export a lot of diesel to Europe from the USA. Diesel is and will always will be cheaper to refine. The oil companies probably make more money exporting a gallon to Europe than selling it here. Most gasoline sold in the USA has ethanol in it. Most of that is derived from corn. Ethanol is subsidized by the Government. Ethanol is cheaper than diesel, but it takes about 1.2 gallons of diesel to make 1 gallon of ethanol from seed to fuel pump. This makes no sense and is a waste of taxpayers money. The govt. is good at that. There has been no reason for diesel prices to go up. When they went from Low sulfur diesel (LSD) to ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD). This change is when the price skyrocketed. The cost to reduce the surfer was minimal. The oil companies just pocketed the cash.
New Colorado and Canyon's being shipped daily.
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The oil companies export a lot of diesel to Europe from the USA. Diesel is and will always will be cheaper to refine. The oil companies probably make more money exporting a gallon to Europe than selling it here. Most gasoline sold in the USA has ethanol in it. Most of that is derived from corn. Ethanol is subsidized by the Government. Ethanol is cheaper than diesel, but it takes about 1.2 gallons of diesel to make 1 gallon of ethanol from seed to fuel pump. This makes no sense and is a waste of taxpayers money. The govt. is good at that. There has been no reason for diesel prices to go up. When they went from Low sulfur diesel (LSD) to ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD). This change is when the price skyrocketed. The cost to reduce the surfer was minimal. The oil companies just pocketed the cash.
Copperhead
Veteran Member
Good God, are you that far behind the times? Ethanol producers have not gotten a subsidy for ethanol since 2011. Subsidies were allowed to expire, and at the request of the ethanol producers themselves.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Total energy use to produce 1 gallon of ethanol is less than the net energy of ethanol. For every BTU of energy to produce ethanol (that includes the diesel the farmer and transporter use, the electric company, natural gas, seed production, fertilizer, herbicide, ad nauseam) the BTU out put is 1.3. So you get 1.3 units of energy from ethanol for every unit of energy to produce ethanol. This is easy to find in a wide variety of hits on a web search, even wikipedia. So your numbers are actually reversed.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/bioenergy/pdfs/energy_balance_of_corn_ethanol.pdf
Many also throw out the water use to produce ethanol. Well, true, it is a little higher than other fuels, but not by much. It does take 3 gallons of water to produce ethanol, but it also takes 2.5 gallons of water to produce a gallon of gasoline! It takes 150 gallons of water to produce one Sunday newspaper, 9.3 gallons to produce a single can of fruit, 13 gallons to produce a gallon of paint, and 14 gallons to produce 1 lb of sugar.
Water Use for Ethanol Production - Ethanol - University of Illinois Extension
Y'all need to get off the conspiracy band wagon and do a little research and think for yourselves.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Total energy use to produce 1 gallon of ethanol is less than the net energy of ethanol. For every BTU of energy to produce ethanol (that includes the diesel the farmer and transporter use, the electric company, natural gas, seed production, fertilizer, herbicide, ad nauseam) the BTU out put is 1.3. So you get 1.3 units of energy from ethanol for every unit of energy to produce ethanol. This is easy to find in a wide variety of hits on a web search, even wikipedia. So your numbers are actually reversed.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/bioenergy/pdfs/energy_balance_of_corn_ethanol.pdf
Many also throw out the water use to produce ethanol. Well, true, it is a little higher than other fuels, but not by much. It does take 3 gallons of water to produce ethanol, but it also takes 2.5 gallons of water to produce a gallon of gasoline! It takes 150 gallons of water to produce one Sunday newspaper, 9.3 gallons to produce a single can of fruit, 13 gallons to produce a gallon of paint, and 14 gallons to produce 1 lb of sugar.
Water Use for Ethanol Production - Ethanol - University of Illinois Extension
Y'all need to get off the conspiracy band wagon and do a little research and think for yourselves.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. It is still as far as I can tell still subsidized. They changed they way. But in 2015 Obama gave the farmers what they wanted.
Obama's 2015 Budget Backs Costly Corn Ethanol Subsidies - US News
Copperhead
Veteran Member
Amazing how some will read into an article their own preconceived ideas.
The subsidies are for ETHNAOL BLENDER PUMPS. That is a retail station thing. Ethanol producers don't sell ethanol retail. This is to allow a consumer to select various blends of ethanol at the retail gas station pump. We have a few of those in our area. I can select E10, E15, E20, E30, and E85 from them if I chose to use one. Ethanol is stored in separate tank than gas, as opposed to mix at fuel terminal like E10 usually is, and then when the consumer selects the blend, it is blended at the pump during fill up. It is up to the consumer, at one of these, if they want to use it or not. It is a subsidy that allows consumer choice. While I am generally against all subsidies, I think there are worse wastes of money than this one. At least the consumer is not forced to do anything. I can still select E0 if I want to.
And many don't take the time to realize, that 80% of the government agriculture budget is the food stamp program. I am sure you have seen the news reports of surf bums that are having lobster, steak, and what not on the taxpayer dime and laughing about how they are taking taxpayer money to fund their little beach parties.
The very same article you reference, confirms my assertion that ethanol producer subsidies were allowed to expire in 2011. So I was Right, Right, Right all along. Farmers and ethanol producers get nothing out of this.
But, US News has always had it's own agenda over the years. Seems you do to. Care to try again? At least please read what you link to and see what it actually states.
But I suggest we get back to the original topic. The anti ethanol or biodiesel thing seems to reek of preconceived ideas sprinkled with religious fervor and reason is not part of the mix.
The subsidies are for ETHNAOL BLENDER PUMPS. That is a retail station thing. Ethanol producers don't sell ethanol retail. This is to allow a consumer to select various blends of ethanol at the retail gas station pump. We have a few of those in our area. I can select E10, E15, E20, E30, and E85 from them if I chose to use one. Ethanol is stored in separate tank than gas, as opposed to mix at fuel terminal like E10 usually is, and then when the consumer selects the blend, it is blended at the pump during fill up. It is up to the consumer, at one of these, if they want to use it or not. It is a subsidy that allows consumer choice. While I am generally against all subsidies, I think there are worse wastes of money than this one. At least the consumer is not forced to do anything. I can still select E0 if I want to.
And many don't take the time to realize, that 80% of the government agriculture budget is the food stamp program. I am sure you have seen the news reports of surf bums that are having lobster, steak, and what not on the taxpayer dime and laughing about how they are taking taxpayer money to fund their little beach parties.
The very same article you reference, confirms my assertion that ethanol producer subsidies were allowed to expire in 2011. So I was Right, Right, Right all along. Farmers and ethanol producers get nothing out of this.
But, US News has always had it's own agenda over the years. Seems you do to. Care to try again? At least please read what you link to and see what it actually states.
But I suggest we get back to the original topic. The anti ethanol or biodiesel thing seems to reek of preconceived ideas sprinkled with religious fervor and reason is not part of the mix.
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crashz
Veteran Member
I think when the ethanol issue comes up, it's discussed as a fuel or hand-out only. But the primary reason for ethanol in E10 is not discussed:
It is used primarily as a replacement to other very harmful chemicals (MBTE) as an oxidizer to help fully burn the fuel vapors during/after combustion. Remember, the ideal stoimetric ratio for a gasoline engine is ideal for making rotational power (without melting it!), not ideal for a complete fuel burn so it needs this chemical, otherwise the air quality would be much worse and our eyes would be burning all the time.
MBTE is toxic and quickly mobilizes in water. If it leaks or is spilled it can render groundwater supplies un-usable and is very difficult and expensive to clean up. Really nasty stuff. Ethanol is not as efficient, but does a comparable job without the danger to our water supply.
In reality E85 is more a gimmick than anything, but I like it. Its too bad that even in a liberal state like MA, we can't get very much of it. It smells clean and little sweet when burnt. And my truck goes like a scalded ape when its filled with it!
It is used primarily as a replacement to other very harmful chemicals (MBTE) as an oxidizer to help fully burn the fuel vapors during/after combustion. Remember, the ideal stoimetric ratio for a gasoline engine is ideal for making rotational power (without melting it!), not ideal for a complete fuel burn so it needs this chemical, otherwise the air quality would be much worse and our eyes would be burning all the time.
MBTE is toxic and quickly mobilizes in water. If it leaks or is spilled it can render groundwater supplies un-usable and is very difficult and expensive to clean up. Really nasty stuff. Ethanol is not as efficient, but does a comparable job without the danger to our water supply.
In reality E85 is more a gimmick than anything, but I like it. Its too bad that even in a liberal state like MA, we can't get very much of it. It smells clean and little sweet when burnt. And my truck goes like a scalded ape when its filled with it!
Why does the govt. need to subsidize a gas station for a blender pump. They don't do it for gas or diesel. e-85 in my area ( the northeast) is near non existent. I have had vehicles that were E-85 compliant and they were slower when compared to the non compliant version. There are other crops that yield much more ethanol per acre than corn. There is still a 55 cent per gallon tariff on ethanol imported into the USA. Wonder why? There are countries that have destroyed millions of acres of rainforest to plant crops to produce ethanol. That sounds good for the environment. The govt. has basically paid to have all these ethanol refineries made here to process ethanol. That is why their costs have gone down. Because you and I paid for it. Obama would gladly say. You didn't build it. Maybe I didn't build it, but the taxpayers paid for it. Don't get me going on food stamps. The govt. is here to help, not provide for you for your entire life.
oliver1555
Gold Member
The change from LSD to ULSD cost refiners and shippers billions for infrastructure upgrades. USLD costs more to refine, as well.
Why Diesel Costs More Than Gasoline | NACS Online ? Your Business ? NACS Retail Fuels Reports ? 2013 NACS Retail Fuels Report
oliver1555
Gold Member
We drove through KC last night. The Pilot had unleaded at $2.59 and diesel at $2.39. In Kearney, Pilot had unleaded at $2.49 and diesel at $2.39.
Going from LSD to ULSD according to the article you posted cost 10 cents a gallon, but it jumped up over a dollar a gallon. Most of the money spent by oil companies was going from high suffer diesel to low sulfur diesel back in 2004. Hmmmmmmmm. Why is this. If you read the article it explains why diesel is higher. They export it and make more money. Diesel is and will always be cheaper to make than gasoline. Diesel is taxed higher by the U.S. Govt. If the oil companies stopped exporting it the cost would go down. We make plenty of diesel. There should be no time of the year that diesel costs more than gas. The only reason it does is the oil companies know that the world economy runs on diesel, and you have to pay what ever they ask for it.
