new farm pond help

   / new farm pond help #1  

SmokyMtnMan

Silver Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2001
Messages
158
Location
Western N.C.
Tractor
Kubota L-4610 Cab
I have a pond just constructed a month ago, app. 1 1/2 acre, from 3-12 foot deep in mts of western NC. I'm now building a t-shaped pier on it and seeding the banks and [censored]. No water in it yet. I'm trying to figure out all the things i need to do before filling it. I will have to drill a well for supply and was planning a constructed stream bed with waterfall when well was drilled. I have red clay soil and did not want a big mudhole for a lake. My thoughts were to let the grass get hold good first, then put a few truckloads of sand on the bottom of pond, then use drilled well to fill it, then shut water off to pond and use for a type of re-circulating waterfall/stream above pond.....and just aerate the pond instead of letting stream continuously flow into it. any other ideas and thoughts on this?
 
   / new farm pond help #2  
A 1.5 acre, 3-12' deep dry hole? That doesn't sound good.

I hope you have an artesian well with 100 GPM yield. My 1HP pump at 200 feet pushes 20 gallons per minute. At 20 GPM it's going to take 125 days for you to fill that pond, with not evaporation or leakage. On a hot summer day I can lose 1 - 2 " of water to evaporation. 1" over 1.5 acres is ~ 40,000 gallons. If you lose an inch a day your well needs to be pumping at 25+ GPM just to keep up with evaporation.

I'd seed the banks and start irrigating. Don't worry about letting the grass get started, that will only take 2 weeks.
 
   / new farm pond help
  • Thread Starter
#3  
well, that's really encouraging. <smile>
I had a stream from an old wet weather spring where cattle use to water, which i was hoping would feed into it. But over the years, new houses nearby probably tapped into the water table some...as we excavated the pond out farther up.....the streambed disappeared. I didn't have any problem with drilling a well for it.....but i wasn't planning on the pump staying on continuously. Actually , I was hoping i could use a solar powered pump...not sure if they get up much more than 10-12 gpm though.
I don't mind taking time to fill it....that's not a problem.....but now the pump continuously on due to evaporation concerns me. Well i got to do something wtih this big hole however.
here's a pic
 

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   / new farm pond help
  • Thread Starter
#4  
view from streambed....where well/pump would be....hoping to create a type of artificial waterfall, stream there also.....have kubota 4610 with loader and blades, rakes, etc....this is what i've done with it so far
 

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   / new farm pond help #5  
Great looking pond. I wouldn't worry about it filling up. It will if you give it some time.
 
   / new farm pond help #6  
Nice pond! From the looks of the slope I would let mother nature fill it. One little popcorn thunderstorm will put a lot of water in it. I am building an addition on mine and a small t-storm put 40,000 gallons of water in it in just a few minutes. It took the better part of a day to pump it out so I could continue work. Give nature a chance before you invest in a well, I think you will be surprised.
 
   / new farm pond help #7  
I agree with Dozer and John on this one -- give it a little time.

That is one good looking pond job!

Can I ask how much they are getting in your area for a job like that?

Thanks,

Buck
 
   / new farm pond help
  • Thread Starter
#8  
Thanks for compliments. This one was done with a rather small trackhoe and a rather hefty dozer. This pic was taken 2 weeks before exacavation was started. No trees had to be cut, all dozer and trackhoe work to remove, mostly jack pines, white pines, poplars, no real monsters moved. The guy was here about 2 weeks, he also hydro-seeded all around, dam, sides of hill around. was around $14, 500
sealed dam with red clay taken from sides of hill, pipe is 12" with collar cemented with 3 cu yds cement
 

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   / new farm pond help #9  
SmokyMtMan, Congratulations and ditto on the other folk's complements. Should be beautiful when surrounded with green and filled with clear water. I too have a lot of red clay and it effects my ponds. With little or no exposed clay in the watershed for a pond I get fairly clear water (the bass can see submerged lures at a good distance and you can watch the 2-3 pounders in schools). Some of the ponds have disturbed earth in their watershed and they tend to get turbid after a rain depending on the amount of exposed material and the intensity of the runoff. Where the rural water district went through a seasonal creek with a track hoe they really played havoc with two of my largest ponds just downstream, one after the other.

A previous poster gave some excellant material on volumes, times, evaporation etc. Very informative and thought provoking. Here is some more to think on: Fine clay particles have charges and repel each other, resisting clumping together which would help make them fall out of suspension. The finer the material the longer it would take to settle out (volume vs surface area) without the particles repelling each other but with that effect you get lengthened settling times. Settling time for solids in suspension which cause turbidity can be thought of in "half lives" like radioactivity. Course materials like fine sand would have a half life in suspension of maybe 1/2 second. After say, 10 seconds, 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X ...(1/2 times 1/2 , repeated 10 times) 1/1024 or 0.0009765625 which is less than one tenth of one percent would be remaining in the water after 10 sec. Unfortunately charged clay particles have a half life of something like a hundred years.

Some of us don't have the patience to wait several centuries after a rain for our ponds to settle and look clear enough. I have ponds of varying degrees of turbidity. One small one is a bright red paint pot all the time and never clears. Others have varying degrees of turbidity depending on the time since a heavy runoff.

There are strategies for clearing ponds. There are chemicals that cause particles to clump together but aren't economically practical for ponds as large as ours. Some folks (like movie makers, for their girl lin the desert water hole scenes) add blue dye to inprove the looks. Works, somewhat expensive, and doesnt clear water just makes it prettier from a distance. Rye straw works fair if done correctly and so on and so forth.

The best strategy is to elliminate as much of the problem at the source as you can. Get good soil holding grasses and whatever going on the watershed and be careful to not disturb the surface upstream of the pond.

You mentioned a drain pipe with a collar. That is good but I didn't read anything about your having an anti-vortex device on the drain pipe. If you do then, fine. If not, I strongly recommend that you contact your soil conservation district for the latest design and get it installed. As it goes on the end of the drain pipe inside the pond, you want to do that while the pond is dry to make getting there and working easier. Only one of my ponds needs a drain pipe and it has an anti-vortex device of older but effective design. The soil conservation district guy commented on the "dated" design and will provide info for update. Without one of these devices you can get serious errosion in short order AND significant muddying of the water in the pond in the process.

The recent farm bill that was passed (thanks George) should have dollars in it for certain assistance programs for which many of us might qualify. Related to ponds, there are programs for cost sharing for flood control ponds and errosion prevention and repair. As of last week the guidelines for the allocation of funds were still being drawn up in Washington D.C. but should filter down to local soil conservation district offices eventually. It would be prudent for anyone interested in this cost sharing program to get the tech out to investigate the situation in advance. As I only average one pond per 20 acres and still have a few "untapped" watersheds that would support a pond, I am interested in puting in more, in the words of the "Beatles", "I'll get by with a little help from my friends."

Solar equipment to do what you want may be prohibitively expensive but if a small flow over a waterfall is sufficient, that will not be a problem (during daylight hours). P-V direct pumping (no batteries) is quite effective for irrigation and potable water supplies (see back issues of "Home Power" magazine).

I went to the URL = http://www.homepower.com and searched on "solar pump" and got 253 hits. Didn't have time to go through them all but from memory (I susbscribe) I can assure you there is a plethora of practical info on
solar powered water pumping, including from wells.

Best of luck to you AND PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post followups with pix as it fills.

Patrick
 
   / new farm pond help #10  
SmokyMtnMan,

Beautiful!

It would be a good idea to put some habitat in the lake before it fills in. Brush, trees, boulders, anything that will give your fish a home. The base of this habitat should be from 3-8 feet in depth. If you want further information on pond management, you can call your local fisheries office, or I could give you some general ideas.

You are on the right track. The best time to do this stuff is before the lake fills.
 
   / new farm pond help #11  
Here's some more information as well.

North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission:
http://216.27.49.98/pg03_Fishing/images/PONDMAN5.PDF

PatrickG raises some interesting points. As for flocculating clay particles, the chemical is common alum (aluminum sulfate) and is fairly economical in my area (TX). You will need sufficient alkalinity levels (>20 ppm) to buffer against pH changes, which may be a problem in your area. If so, liming would be required. Turnkey application of alum in a pond your size should cost less than $750, with liming costing a bit more. This assumes a local source of materials.

It is unlikely you will have a turbidity problem, but if you do, it would be wise to correct it.
 
   / new farm pond help #12  
Fishman, thanks for stepping up to the plate. I know there is a lot to know that I don't know, especially in aquaculture. I've read that clay or cement pipe (6 inch or larger ID) is good to put in the pond to give fish a place to hide. I read that catfish especially like those to "nest" in. What are the best references that you would recommend to read up on clearing ponds. I have a pond chalenged friend with a red paint pot pond as his only pond (and only one he has room for, south central Oklahoma, bright red clay). I told him about the rye straw that I read about, floculants, and some other ideas but he got wildly different cost estimates from what you mentioned.

Is there a reason that he and I couldn't do the work? The chemistry can't be that difficult can it? I would love to be able to show him a solution that we could implement. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Oh by the way he likes to keep fish in the pond for the grand kids to catch.

Patrick
 
   / new farm pond help
  • Thread Starter
#13  
wow....just plain WOW. you know.....i've been using the internet discussions groups, chat rooms, etc for about 4 yrs now and I don't think I've ever received a more informative, well thought out response as yours, Patrick. And you other guys too. I am printing these out. I have visited some other pond building sites, extension service sites, etc. I'm been busy this morning with a guy helping me with a T-shaped fishing pier...app. 40 ft long with 24 ft wings on the end. I have not had much rain here and it seems the grass mixture that they guy doing the hydroseeding has only taken hold in the shady parts, north facing.....nothing on the sunny slopes that face south yet.....and it's been 3 weeks now.
when the rain did come the other day....i've got a few gullies now.....and the pond has caked, desert-like red clay mud.
Should i close the drain cap and let the rain naturally fill some of it up even though it's muddy? or should i leave it open and let some of the muddy, red clay wash through?
i'm not sure what anti-vortex is......but i have a long rod attached to the overflow pipe which opens and closes a lid....similiar to one of those you would see on a submarine...it's heavy cast iron bolted on....rod lifts it up or lets it drop over pipe

my main concern at this time is to do something before filling that might help with keeping it as clear as possible

i know about using Gypsum after the water is in....by taking it out in a boat and spreading it over water.....but is there anything you can do before filling to help?
Patrick, can you re-do your second paragraph in Appalachian Hillbilly talk for me?
 
   / new farm pond help #14  
TBN is great, eh? If you would, I'd appreciate your sending me, via private e-mail, the name of the guy you hired. Looks to me like he did nice work for you. As we are neighbors, I'd like to get him to look at an area we have that I think is tailor made. Thx!
 
   / new farm pond help #15  
SmokeyMtnMan, Translate, hmmmm. Lessee, I have been in the Great Smokeys on vacations, watched the car lights of traffic come over the Cumberland Gap and was in "bear jams". We have many alternatives but the top two are: You use a babel fish or I try to translate. Well It has been over 40 years since I was in the Smokeys and there are probably a lot fewer folks living in cabins with dirt floors and gasoline powered Maytags in the yard but here goes...

Clay and other dirt stuff in water tend to settle out over time with the big stuff falling out first. This is like if you threw a hand full of dirt up in the air. The big stuff, rocks and pebbles would fall out right away, then sand, fine dirt then the real fine dust would be last. Stuff that won't disolve in water is like that too, except some clay is a special case. This clay has a charge on it kinda like static electricity. And since like charges repel each other the particles with these charges don't clump together. They are so fine that it might take 100yrs to settle out but something would probably stir them up before that time passed so effectively they don't settle out.

The math stuff isn't absolutely neccessary but if you were a math oriented guy (some are some aren't) it would have made it as clear as, if not mud, red clay in your pond water.

I would hate to be on the hook to advise you regarding filling your pond or waiting for more ground cover to reduce turbidity. I would get a sample of the mud, put some in a gallon jar, fill it up about 7/8 of the way with water and shake the devil out of it. Put it down and wait and see. If it never gets satisfactorily clear in this test the pond probably won't either. The more water you are looking through the darker it will look. This is why I suggest a gallon rather than a 1/2 pint so you won't be fooled. If it settles out real good then you might want to go for it.

This is when fishman is supposed to step in and tell us what the real deal is.

When you drain a sink or the bath tub or whatever and the water tends to swirl around in a spiral as it goes down the drain (clockwise or counter clockwise depending on which side of the equator you are on) that sinking spiral draining pattern is called a vortex. It will occur naturally when a pond overflows via its drain pipe. It will get a lot of water moving around and around in a pond if it drains for a while like during a good rain. This can cause significant errosion problems for the pond's dam, sidewalls, whatever. To prevent thi, an anti-vortex device is attached to the drain pipe on the inside of the pond. It prevents the build up of a large erroding circulation of water. They are quite simple having no moving parts, You don't have to maintain them.

AHA, maybe your pond drain is at or near your ponds bottom? If yes then I don't know what to say about the anti-vortex thingy except ask an expert. In these parts ponds with pipe drains have the drain pipe at the pond end at the highest safe level for water and when the water rises above that it just runs out. This style needs an anti-vortex device very much. "FANCY" ponds might also have a drain with a valve that can pretty much drain the whole pond.

Historical note for folks not familiar with "bear jams." Years ago folks driving through the Smokeys would feed the bears so the bears would learn to approach cars for handouts. On the then narrow and winding roads if a tourist stopped to feed/photograph a bear and especially if someone going the other way stopped also then you had a 100% traffic jam caused by bears, hence, bear jam. In later years got caught in those in Yellowstone while driving an MG-A 1500 roadster with top down. Not fun being mugged by bears in that situation.

Patrick
 
   / new farm pond help #16  
Patrickg is on the right track with the gallon jar deal. That is a common way to determine if problems in existing ponds are due to the clay particles (it won't settle out) or carp/bullheads stirring up the sediment (it will settle out). Of course, if you have both problems, you really are in trouble, and renovation is in order.

Anyway, the link I gave above gives some traditional remedies for muddy water, but this link: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://water3.dnr.state.sc.us/dnr/wild/freshfish/img/fishpond.pdf>http://water3.dnr.state.sc.us/dnr/wild/freshfish/img/fishpond.pdf</A> talks about alum. Their recommendation is 50/lbs/acre foot, which is a good place to start. If you have a very large lake, you would want to get more precise to save cost. Do this by adding progressively larger amounts of alum to 4 jars (carefully measured) and see how much is needed to clear the water. The lowest concentration is what to use. Mix the amount needed to achieve that concentration in water, and apply to the surface of your pond with a gas water pump.

<font color=red> Remember, alkalinity must be above 20 ppm, or the alum will not be adequately buffered, possibly resulting in a fish kill.</font color=red> Please click the link above for info on how to deal with this problem (page 18).

In my area(TX), alum in bulk costs less than $20/50 lbs. Purchased from a national supplier, the cost is more like $70/50 lbs, including shipping. This cost would not be prohibitive for, say a 1.5 acre pond, averaging 4 feet in depth (max materials cost 6 acre/feet * $70 = $420).

As always, I recommend you contact your local state fisheries biologist or private lake management consultant to get information relevant to your area. Not all ponds are created equal.
 
   / new farm pond help
  • Thread Starter
#17  
ok, think I've got some help now on the 'muddy' issues. Got a T-shped fishing pier under construction now, 40 feet by 24 feet in size, still not a good hold on grass yet, and some fish attractors in place. What i'm currently doing is trying to get a 'fake' creek carved out above the pond to both fill the pond and for landscaping and aesthetic purposes. This area was overgrown, briars, bittersweet vines, jack pines, cedars, etc....was a thick wildnerness. Here's some pics of the area i'm trying to build a waterfall and streambed for pond.
any ideas on this would be appreciated. I'm still open as to what i'm going to do here. just want to fill pond, then use it as a place to sit, relax by the creek......there are no other creeks or water sources on property. My well for the main house is about 300 feet from this one. I didn't want to affect my house source much if i could help it.
this is head of the pond where water source would be...dug or drilled ...using 'bota 4610 with loader and attachments
 

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#18  
view of streambed and waterfall area looking toward lake
 

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#20  
waterfall and stream for pond...view before rock placement
 

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